OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Everything Else > Almost Anything Goes
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - people are crazy...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

people are crazy...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 14151617>
Author
Message
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2020 at 12:05
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


I have two daughters who work in the medical professions... both have told me that they have been ordered to report virtually any death as "covid-19 related".  Turns out, there are monetary benefits to deaths related to covid-19.  How surprising.  

CDC performed a study on number of CV19 cases in the U.S. and discovered that the actual number is under reported by at least a factor of 10.  Approximately 25 million cases vs the currently reported approximately 2.5 million.  That puts the current death rate at 0.005.  Much lower than the reports from the nattering nabobs in the media.

Dan, I was with you on your first and last paragraphs, but the 2 in the middle are at best very misleading, at worst downright false.

No doubt there are more Covid-19 cases than reported. That’s usually the case with pandemics, especially before they’ve finished running their courses. The reason is simple: one can’t be conclusively diagnosed with it if they haven’t been tested for it. As more tests are administered, more cases are counted. Where did you read or hear the count is off by a factor of 10? Can you post a link to that? I’m not saying it’s not true, just that I don’t see that statement anywhere on the CDC’s site:
Let’s assume you’re correct, and there are 10 times more Covid cases in the US than reported. First, if CDC did say that, then we’re still talking about estimates, so any mortality math done on estimates is nearly meaningless. Regardless, your .005 number on mortality rate is the quotient, not a percentage. You move the decimal point over 2 places to get percent. That is .5%. Assuming that’s correct, based on a swag that may or may not be valid no less, that would still make Covid between 3-5 times deadlier than the flu, more deadly than H1N1, and about half the mortality % of the 1918 Spanish Flu. That’s bad. Very bad. It’s worth noting here that most of the next 10-15 countries with the highest case rates below the US are currently tracking at 3-5% mortality rate, which mirrors the CDC numbers for the US. Are these countries all inflating their data as well, and by the same amount? All of this while most of the world was partially or completely on lockdown. Was there a meeting held somewhere where representatives from all of these nations all agreed to “cook the books” ostensibly for the sole reason being to hurt Trump’s re-election chances?

On the subject of the CDC and since you acknowledged them as an authoritative source for Covid data, they track excess deaths related to the disease, meaning number of deaths beyond what is historically expected in a given year from other causes. It’s worth noting that their excess death data agrees with the reported Covid death data. 


So, if Covid deaths were overstated, then how can you explain the fact CDC data agrees with reported data elsewhere, and how can you then cherry pick, citing them as an authority on one aspect of case data and dismissing them on another? Their full data is there on their site for anyone to read. Are the Covid mortality numbers the only pandemic numbers that have been inflated (by all other countries worldwide no less) and those numbers for all other diseases besides Covid correct and believable? It’s never possible to get exact numbers of cases and deaths for any disease. 

The CARES act does provide financial help for hospitals with Covid patients, just as it provides financial assistance to people who lost their jobs and businesses negatively impacted by Covid. That doesn’t mean hospitals are gaming the system. That’s called a felony. The risks are far too high, and most doctors aren’t willing to risk their careers by misreporting causes of death on federal documents (death certificates) just to help out their employers. I know an infectious disease specialist who happens to be the foremost expert on infectious diseases in the region of Texas where I live. The man makes his living from studying infectious diseases and helping to design treatment plans, containment plans, and advise on public policy on same. Three weeks ago, I had a long conversation with him about Covid, and he told me that this rumor going around about over-reporting of Covid deaths is complete BS, just another conspiracy theory. In fact, he got visibly angry when he talked about all the “complete bullsh**” in his words that you hear about Covid in blogs, social media, and the like. He said he has good friends who are pissed at him right now because he won’t back up the nonsense they hear on social media. He consults regularly with infectious disease doctors in other countries and said they are all livid that their life’s work, integrity and professional ethics have been put on trial by people with political motivations. What they see of the affects and scope of the disease agrees with each other very closely, based on ongoing data. They have no incentive to inflate or overstate the affects of the disease. In fact, quite the opposite. Most doctors take their professional ethics very seriously and work hard to present the truth to the best of their abilities.

Unless your daughters are both coroners or direct attending physicians to patients who died, they aren’t permitted to report anything regarding cause of death on an official basis, let alone being “forced” to do so. I have a wife and daughter who are also in the medical field, (RNs, not MDs), and they tell me the same as my infectious disease doctor friend: the claim of hospital admins forcing doctors to lie about causes of death is complete bullcrap. On top of that, discussing particulars about any specific cases pertaining to specific patients is a violation of HIPAA laws, so medical professionals have to be extremely careful about what they say about patient care outside of work, as they risk losing their jobs. My daughter is caring for Covid patients every day she’s at work. Her unit is full of Covid patients and they’ve had a lot of deaths from it. Yes, it does overwhelmingly affect the elderly and people with preexisting morbidities, but so what? Ultimate cause of death is the cause of death, even if they “would’ve likely died anyway” days, weeks, or months later. My dad officially passed away from blood clots in his lungs, though this was brought on by the fact he had lung cancer and the surgery necessary to remove the cancer lead to the blood clots. There are acute and chronic conditions listed on death certificates and the acute conditions can still be the cause of death despite having chronic conditions that lead to the acute condition being the straw that broke the camel’s back. 

The “inflated death” rumor is just that, rumor. It’s been debunked by multiple sources besides CDC.

As my doctor friend told me, people are naturally predisposed to believe whatever sources align with their own suspicions and biases and discard those sources that disagree. We are still in the middle of this pandemic and there is no way we can know the true mortality rate at this point until it has run its course. 

Has their been a major over-reaction to Covid? Yes, I believe so. Has government policy infringed on personal liberty and set dangerous precedent? Yes, no doubt. Have politicians used the Covid crisis as a pretext to try to push their agendas? Absolutely! Regardless of the serious constitutional and legal questions that have arisen from government policies taken to reduce the virus’s impact, the fact remains that in the absence of any measures taken to try to reduce its spread, the mortality rate would have been far worse. How much worse will forever be unknown just as the exact final case and mortality numbers will forever be unknown. One positive that my doctor friend thinks will result from this crisis: because of the dire economic consequences of Covid and lessons learned, he believes that the future response to pandemics will look far different, in a positive way, at least from a medical standpoint if not a political one. He fully admitted he might be an idealist in that point though. As long as politics are involved with any event that affects us either positively or negatively, it’s guaranteed we will continue to be fed complete bullsh** about it... from both sides of the aisle. I do believe democrats are much worse at spewing bs propaganda since they practically own media and are reinforced by academia, but there is no shortage of propagandists and conspiracy theorists on our side too.


Edited by RifleDude - June/27/2020 at 12:43
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 21697
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2020 at 17:21
Ted you can believe whatever you want... which you are wont to do.  The report was touted as coming from CDC, they don't put everything on their website... especially when it is controversial.  However, I did not report CDC as a "factual" authority.  But... for your BENEFIT, here's the URL:
I believe far less of what they say than you do.  The point was that the information is STILL all over the place... some people picked up on that though obviously you did not.  Not unexpected.  In fact, you responded EXACTLY as I expected.  There is a FACT in this, CV19 cases in the population are vastly underreported... in some cases intentionally, in some cases because morons are running the show.  We have not devoted and probably don't have the resources to get an accurate count of actual cases.  

Regardless, CV19 is STILL not "Captain Trips", but yes it has killed a lot of people.  I believe I stated earlier that if the death toll was 1% (or even the first horror story 3%), it is not a HORRIBLE killer.  It is new (no "herd immunity", it is lethal in some cases (mostly old people with additional "death factors" that would kill them anyway within a short period of time) and it is, according to many reports (upon which the validity is still being determined), going DOWN in lethality.  I'm still not certain on whether it is an engineered virus or just a mutated one from Chinese experimentation.  I am convinced that it "came alive" in a Chinese lab and was transported to a Chinese "wet market" where it rapidly spread to a large population... funny how the Chinese restricted all travel within China from Wuhan, but allowed travel to the rest of the world.  Funny... ha... ha... ha

I truly hope no one else dies from CV19, but it IS going to run its course.  We can, perhaps, slow it down (have to some extent), but we can't stop it and it is going to kill those that are subject to it.  It's a virus... we have not CURED a flu or cold in the history of mankind... we have in some cases delayed viruses and their effects... they always come back.  We can do smart things (NOT quarantining healthy people, but quarantining people who already have the disease and restricting access to those who are most likely to DIE from it)... I'm not sure the marching morons can perform to the level required, but we can't shut down the economy or, along with the current idiocy being allowed to run rampant in the U.S., we WILL NOT survive as the United States of America.  
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2020 at 22:07
Dan, I’m automatically skeptical of most of what I hear from most sources. I said very clearly that we don’t know the true numbers, cannot know the true numbers, and likely will never know the true numbers...the same as with all other pandemics. That’s not due to nefarious plots as much as it’s due to the fact many people who are infected don’t get tested, dont go to the doctor, misdiagnose the symptoms, and/or are asymptomatic. That is the reality of all pandemics. That being said, yes, I believe the CDC is way more credible and closer to accuracy on the topic than bloggers, media, and armchair internet experts...especially given the fact that their mortality % has continually tracked closely with the data reported by most non-communist nations on planet earth and a doctor whose study data I trust agrees with all the above. I may be old-fashioned, but when considering the credibility of any info I hear about any topic, I tend to trust info about a thing from those who make their living doing the thing being discussed vs those who have political agendas to promote. The media are proven liars. Bloggers and columnists are frequently full of schist. Yeah, government agency credibility has certainly taken a serious hit of late in light of recent scandals, so it’s not at all unreasonable to think CDC personnel aren’t immune to placing personal politics over professional ethics. However, if that’s the case, they sure are thorough in the data they provide and that data agrees with the findings of most of the world. I believe common sense and the “smell test” kinda indicates that multiple data points from multiple sources might just be a tad more reliable that some hack in the press with no medical background. In the same way, I’d place much more trust in what you say on the topic of rockets and artillery than the assistant manager of Taco Bell. 

Nothing I said in my post above was my opinion. Hell, I don’t know what to believe, I don’t know “the truth” with absolute certainty and neither do you. Then again, I wasn’t the one making definitive statements about mortality rates based off “might be,” with incorrect % calculation, while we could still be in the early stages of the pandemic. I wasn’t the one claiming hospitals everywhere are lying to extort more money. Thus, the burden of proof is not on me; it’s on you. I provided sources supporting everything I said.

Cool, someone reported that the CDC did in fact believe the case numbers to be as much as 10x greater than reported. Of course there are more cases of the disease than reported; there always is, especially while a pandemic is still ongoing. That’s common sense. I stated that in my post. Yes, I was skeptical of the 10x greater claim just as I’m skeptical of all bold claims, especially since I couldn’t find that anywhere on their website. But as I said very clearly, if true, then a “could be as high as” estimate is not a definitive basis to then calculate mortality % against, especially since the pandemic is ongoing and a % of the active case numbers will still end in deaths. Deaths will always trail active cases, sometimes by a considerable time delta. It’s interesting how on the one hand, you presented the 25 million number cited in that article as a probability, yet you also claimed above that the disease is on a downward trend when that same article stated the opposite in the following paragraphs — numbers growing, second wave upon us.

It’s amusing how your caps lock button tends to get stuck whenever someone (especially me) posts contradictory info or disagrees with you, as if disagreement on a discussion forum is a bad thing. Just a tip: E-pounding your fists on the table via all caps doesn’t typically cause people to suddenly rethink their stance on an issue. If you disagree on the info I presented, buttressed by sources, why not just provide other credible sources if reasoned intelligent discourse is your aim rather than trolling?

If you wish, I’ll be happy to PM you the name and phone number of an infectious disease specialist who will dispute all of your claims about Covid’s severity mortality, and current status...because, you see, he does that for a living. Should I put more faith in what an internet article, forum post, or media talking head says over his input that happens to correlate with worldwide data?


Edited by RifleDude - June/27/2020 at 23:07
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
BeltFed View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: February/12/2008
Location: Ky
Status: Offline
Points: 19892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 11:30
I don't even have to read the last 3 post to know that you two are at it again, and probably over nothing.
Talking about crazy people?! Sheesh!
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 12:14
Johnny Carson: Hilarious Phrases Youll Never Hear, Tonight Show ...

" Eduardo will drink to that! "   







The Dismal Swamp - The Optics Talk Forums - Page 93








Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 12:15
The Dismal Swamp - The Optics Talk Forums - Page 204








Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 12:16
Johnny Carson tries to get through a joke with help from his staff ...

"The other day Eduardo drank to a squirrel eating a pecan!"   







How To Get Your Next Audience To Laugh During Your Speech










Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
tahqua View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Have You Driven A Ford Lately?

Joined: March/27/2006
Location: Michigan, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8805
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 14:02
I wish we had pecan trees
Doug
Back to Top
mike650 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: May/14/2006
Location: West of Rockies
Status: Offline
Points: 13849
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 14:19
Fish to Live, Live to Hunt
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 15:48
Johnny Carson: Hilarious Phrases Youll Never Hear, Tonight Show ...

" Eduardo just had a drink to mike650! "    









http://waznmentobe.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04 ...







Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 16:52
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

I don't even have to read the last 3 post to know that you two are at it again, and probably over nothing.
Talking about crazy people?! Sheesh!

This is an internet forum.

Internet forums are designed for having discussions.

When one posts on said forum, the implication of that act is that they are inviting comments, i.e. discussion.

Discussions don't always have to involve agreement, at least among grown folks.

Disagreement is often a healthy thing provided it doesn't involve personal insults.

If one is sensitive to viewing discussions that may trigger them, one always has the option of just scrolling past the offending posts.

I'll be sure and run my posts by you in the future to make sure they meet your approval and standards for "something." My goal is to make you happy.


Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Dogger View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: January/02/2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Online
Points: 5963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 17:18
Interesting and appropriate short discussion.

Reasoned Discourse as a Vital 21st-Century Skill




Reasoned Discourse as a Vital 21st-Century Skill

God save the Empire!
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 18:25
Well, now that Dogger put me to sleep with that article, I guess I will have a snort!    Smile
Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
BeltFed View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: February/12/2008
Location: Ky
Status: Offline
Points: 19892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 18:27
Ted, I stand by MY statement. Never said I disapprove, I didn't even read the post, nor do I care to, so have at it.
I just pointed out that you and Dan are arguing again, and probably over nothing. So don't look for my approval either way.
And this thread is about crazy people. That's a topic I've had a lot of first hand experience in. Not that I'm calling anyone here crazy. I know better.
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
Back to Top
Dogger View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: January/02/2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Online
Points: 5963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 18:32
That was my intent Ed. 
God save the Empire!
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 18:42
Wink
Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 77497
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 18:45
Hey, Dogger, it is a sunny evening in Waco.....90* pleasant.....
Visit the Ed Show
Back to Top
Dogger View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: January/02/2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Online
Points: 5963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 19:11
Nice here tonight too Ed. Clear skies and 81. Had some rain the last few days so everything turning green again.
God save the Empire!
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 19:44
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

I just pointed out that you and Dan are arguing again, and probably over nothing. So don't look for my approval either way.

Thank you for pointing that out. I was totally caught off guard by that revelation. I will be looking for the decision matrix you formulated so I will know whether or not future posts of mine meet your standards of "something" worth discussing. Again, my aim is to meet your approval.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2020 at 19:47
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Ted, I stand by MY statement. Never said I disapprove, I didn't even read the post, nor do I care to, so have at it.

So you posted in response to our posts to inform us you didn't actually read our posts, but wished to comment on them anyway. Insightful, constructive take there. 

Thanks!
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 14151617>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.430 seconds.