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Pondering Scope Mounts

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cabochris View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cabochris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pondering Scope Mounts
    Posted: April/05/2020 at 15:11
Just when I think I've figured out my favorite scope mounts, I start to question everything.  I think it's clear for top performance a scope must be correctly mounted, besides just slapping it into a set of rings.

What got me to thinking about this is the card included with my new Swarovski scope.  It pointed out and for the first time ever I saw a torque spec for mountain a scope tube.  In this case Swarovski said 18ip for their scopes.  In the manual it says 20ip.  What got my attention was the reason why.  Swarovski says over tightening scope rings can degrade accuracy.  I never thought about that before and wonder if I have to re-evaluate my scope mounting- besides ring torque when accuracy matters?

On several of my hunting rifles I have chosen to use DNZ 1 pc mounts.  They never seem to mark/scratch scopes because they're so precisely made.  But here's where it gets interesting.  First DNZ says never to use a thread locker or you'll void their warranty.  That with their mounts a locker is not needed.  Nor is lapping.  If one reads their written online specs, DNZ says to mount their base screws to 30ip and 25ip for ring tops, or 30ip for ring tops when mounting quality scopes.  30ip!  Swarovski says on their scope only 20ip regardless of what ring manufacturer says.  However DNZ says higher torque values are required to hold scope, because their tolerances are so precise.  In the past I have torqued my scopes in DNZ mounts to 30ip with no apparent problems.  Now I wonder?  Perhaps accuracy is being adversely effected in ways I do not know about?  I may stop using DNZ mounts?

Interestingly I just watched a Midway video where Larry Potterfield mounted Leupold bases torqued to 30ip.  That's way more than what Leupold calls for?  One reason I was attracted to DNZ... I liked idea of torquing the base to 30ip for more security.  DNZ screws can take 30ip.  But can Leupold base screws?

Which brings me to what I'm really wondering about.  Say you place a scope into a 1 piece mount or rail mounted to a rifle.  Then when you go to bore sight/zero, it requires noticeable wind-age adjustment.  This has happened to me with DNZ mounts, which are supposed to be milled to perfection.  Would that mean the rifle mounting holes are off?  Otherwise wouldn't a perfect mount line up wind-age perfectly with bore?

I ask because I thought for accuracy the closer a scope reticle is centered in scope, the better?  So now I wonder besides picking the right mount/lapping rings, perhaps the Old School mounts with rear wind-age screws should be used on production rifles?  The kind of mount I ran from years ago?  Lets say one mounts a scope in a 2 piece Leupold base with front dovetail ring and rear wind-age screw ring.  A 2 piece base can be used because we'll align and lap the rings, using bars and centering rear mount wind-age screws perfectly.  By doing so correctly, wouldn't that mean the scope wind-age adjustment should be right on when bore-sighting and potential accuracy gained?  Or is such precise mounting not needed?  Otherwise how does one know if a perfectly looking mount job could be torquing the scope body?

I'm just wondering... one might have an MOA or 1.5 MOA rifle/scope set-up that with a little more precise mounting, could shoot sub MOA?       


  
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JLud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2020 at 17:12
quite possible...depends on steel or aluminum....I just go with what wheeler fat wrench tells me and works fine...
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/05/2020 at 20:54
it is very common for receivers to not be square which can cause binding of your scopes. If they are out of square from front to back even using a 1 piece base will not fix this because when u tighten down the base screws it will flex the base. Wheeler makes a scope installation kit with alignment bars that will show you if thing are square or not. If not then you can bed your base with epoxy to straighten things up 

One reason not to use locktite on rimg cap bolts it because it lubricates the bolts while the locktite is wet and you will tighten them much more than u think u are, the ither is u might break them next time u take them out

How to tight could affect accuracy is it could bend your scope tube in enough to affect the adjustments of the scope. Or the magnification adjustment, or the parrallax adjustment etc. 

I always try to go by what the scope manufacturer says vs the ring manufacturer. 
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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2020 at 01:42
A couple of points:

1) For the rings, go with the torque the scope manufacturer suggests
2) Do not use loctite on rings. Any rings. Regardless of who made them.  More than half of the scope problems I deal with when answering questions were because some imbecil lathered up the screws with loctite and crushed the tube
3) Old Leupold/Redfield style rings/bases with rear windage adjustments were crap when they were invented and did not improve with age.  If your rifle receiver is not drilled correctly your best bet is to use Burris Signature Weave/Picatinny rings to correct for that.

ILya
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2020 at 11:23
Now that I am on a computer instead of my phone I can type a little more.  A comment on lapping.  Lapping is typically a bandaid to fix other problems ie. the receiver being not true, mounting holes being not true, etc.  Most decent ring sets these days are made to very good tolerances so it is just not needed

Once you lap them you have essentially made the rings larger, possibly causing a issue that the rings will be to big and your scope will move easier.  Also because of gravity, you are taking more of the material off the bottom half of the rings.  The result of that is when you tighted down the rigs caps they may not be square to the bottom rings any more.  And, you have now mated them to that exact rifle.  You will not be able to use them on a different rifle down the road.  Thats why it should be a last resort.  Plus it makes the rings rough and they will then mark your scope up.  I know that one from experience. 

Wheeler and kokopelli make the kits that will help you get your rings/bases squared up.  I use kokopelli and use them on all my mounts.  Once I learned about the damage lapping actually causes, I have never used their lapping bars since.  I now bed bases with epoxy if needed to square things ups.

Bedding DNZ mounts will be pretty easy since they are once pieces.  Bedding a two piece setup is tough and if I have a rifle that is out of alignment front to back, I then buy a one piece base for said rifle and epoxy bed it so it is trued up. 
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cabochris View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cabochris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2020 at 18:03
Plenty here to ponder.  Thanks.  I now wonder if any production rifle base holes are really square/aligned?  Perhaps the recent budget rifles are like Ruger American, Mossberg Patriot, Mauser M18 and similar are, because modern machining equipment/techniques have vastly improved?  Some of theses entry rifles can shoot.  Mauser guarantees 5 shot MOA!

Some just do not care and many do not even check action screw tightness!  In the past my Caveman brain convinced me to make everything tight.  Real tight so it doesn't shoot loose on an important hunt.  Years ago when I started to reason, I sheared my fair share of scope mount screws!  Then I actually developed my own technique of finger tightening by feel to the near point of stripping/shearing.  After all it had to be tight!    

One day I discovered a torque wrench and have been obsessed with torquing everything since.  But I still tend to ad a little more... just a smidgen.  Now I think this is wrong regarding optics and perhaps even actions.  I'll never forget my goofy early year hunting buddies and their scopes coming loose in their mounts out in the field... Oh the stories I could relate!  

I knew a self-retired Smith who got tired of working on everybody's guns but his.  For a while I managed to get a foot in his door, for he had the most impressive private gun workshop in his home, including a huge lathe.  I convinced him to do some work for me and I watched intently trying to learn.  Clearly this guy knew his stuff.  He sold me a spare scope on hand and when it came time to mount it,  he tightened all screws by feel and said he was that good because of doing so many over the years.  From what I saw his tightening did not seem excessive or like I would have done.  After ring alignment he said he always lapped and only the bottom ring halves and not excessively.  He explained that only the bottoms needed lapping as the top rings kind of flex around the scope.  He used to be a competitive shooter, so who was I to question him?  I didn't.  I knew a guy who bought a used rifle with DNZ mounts.  He mounted his scope and torqued to the usual 30ip DNZ calls for.  Guess what?  The scope tube crushed!  Turns out the previous owner lapped the DNZ rings and I didn't even think that mattered!  Wow, there seem to be so many opinions on lapping.  Perhaps the rings with inserts are the quick answer?     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2020 at 21:28
that all goes back to the alignment bars you can get from kokopelli and wheeler. You put one bar in each ring, touch the bars together and tighten the ring caps. You know real quick if things are true or not. 

I have two ruger americans and both of them where true. I sas actually surpised. I have had to bed 3, 700 bases, and a m70 base. My abolt was perfect and my two tikkas were perfect.  My stiller was nice and true.

Its nice to have the bars, then u can just know for sure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2020 at 10:55
Talley... nice boxes too.  Thunbs Up
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