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Primer pocket depth and uniforming |
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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Posted: June/20/2012 at 10:09 |
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I have been uniforming my primer pockets after every firing with a redding uniformer. It has a stop to ensure proper primer pocket depth, but even so, I was wondering if I should be cutting into the primer pocket after every firing. Yes it does take significantly less time to cut it down to specs, but material is still being removed.
Does brass flow into the primer pocket after each firing? Im using an RCBS hand priming tool to seat primers. My method is to keep pulling the lever until it comes to a stop. Could I be seating them too far into the pocket? I would think no, since the pockets are being uniformed after each firing so it must be the correct depth. |
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Alan Robertson
Optics Master Joined: October/31/2009 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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All that pressure does move brass around... If it's possible to remove too much on the initial pocket uniforming cut (as in using a large rifle cutter in a large pistol pocket), then one might think it''s possible to cut it too thin after a number of reloads/re- cuts.
Not much more happens after initial forming than pocket cleaning, usually and it might be a sign of excess pressure if you're removing much metal after more firings. Pockets will loosen a lot quicker if the cut gets too deep or you are loading too hot. As more material is removed from the web during primer pocket uniforming, that could speed the case demise as firing sort of bows the pocket and the rim starts to expand. If you get as little as .0001" rim expansion, you're too hot/too thin. Primers are perfectly seated when the anvil slightly "crushes" the priming compound. As with anything else, there can always be too much of a good thing. There are so many ways to thrill yourself while reloading... makes a tingle run up my leg. |
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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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Primers are perfectly seated when the anvil slightly "crushes" the
priming compound. As with anything else, there can always be too much of
a good thing. - Alan Robertson
How would I feel for this? A method ive been trying is to seat the primer until the effort is reduced, seat it in a little more and call it good. This seats the primer just below flush. But I would imagine that it would not be as consistent as seating the primer in until the hand primer stops but I dont want to crush the primers. The uniformer cuts the pocket down to .129in and, an FGMM primer full seated (until hand primer stops) will seat from .004in to .006in below case head. |
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Steelbenz
Optics Jedi Knight ROLL TIDE ROLL Joined: January/03/2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Status: Offline Points: 5153 |
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Allen, that is one scary looking primer right there Bro! Mr. Lucky is an understatement.
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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
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Alan Robertson
Optics Master Joined: October/31/2009 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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Gil P- the best tool for the job (for me) is the simple little Lee hand- prime tool- depth adjustable and perfect "feel".
There were actually 4 errors which produced the primer shown in pic: 1) New, plated Starline brass was causing difficulties seating on the press (no probs by hand) 2) I'd failed to switch the small- primer seater on the press with the large seater 3) The little cup/primer holder was frozen to the primer punch by a brass shaving 4) I didn't immediately stop priming on press and figure out the problem when the first 4 or 5 cases were difficult- the others didn't show an issue when seated Hand loading is a pursuit which requires complete mindfulness at all times, regardless of experience, perhaps even in spite of experience... |
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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Unless you're hunting with a rail gun, this is yet another waste of time.
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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What is? |
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Easy come easy go
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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He means primer pocket uniforming. On a typical hunting rifle you will never be able to tell.
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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A great tool, indeed. Lee Auto Prime is a MUST HAVE for your reloading bench.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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Yes. Uniforming primer pocket depths for a hunting rifle is a waste of time. I used to do it along with weighing cases and uniforming flash holes too.
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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I do both; to each his own I guess. I'm just trying to shrink my group size and im sure getting the brass as uniform as possible couldnt hurt.
Alan & Cheaptrick, I get pretty good feel out of my RCBS hand primer, but I have never used the Lee either. I may try it if its depth adjustable. |
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Easy come easy go
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else. |
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Longhunter
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/02/2006 Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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John Haviland wrote an excellent article on this subject ("Brass Prep for Hunters") in the July-August 2012 issue of Successful Hunter magazine (p. 14).
He did a complete "prep" job on the brass for one set of reloads for a .30-06 hunting rifle. He then shot the "prepped" loads against an "unprepped" set of reloads using the same components. He also ran the same test with "prepped" and "unprepped" reloads in an accurate Cooper .22-250 varmint rifle. His conclusion: "In the end, the case preparation resulted in nothing. This will hopefully cure my compulsion to fiddle, and I'll spend less time at the loading bench and more outside shooting in the healing sunlight." Benchrest loads are, of course, a completely different subject.
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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The reason I say this is because hunting rifles, even custom ones, aren't accurate enough consistently to yield conclusive results from those case prep procedures. Best thing I could recommend, if I may, is to start off with top shelf brass like Lapua or Norma which have drilled flash holes and more consistent neck wall thicknesses and don't sweat the smaller stuff. Seating depth will have more of an effect on accuracy than all those other little time consuming procedures put together. Out of curiosity, what rifle and caliber are we discussing here ?
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Your wasting time on a factory hunting rifle, my friend. Next thing is you'll be turning case necks and going out and buying a run out gauge.
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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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Its a Remington 700 AAC-SD, in 308 with a B&C stock on it. Maybe im trying to hard? In all honesty, it is basically a factory hunting rifle (that is my intended use for it), but im still trying to squeeze every little bit of accuracy I can out of it. Like you say it may make no difference. If you are interested, to prepare brass (lets say once fired) I: Put it through a Redding body die Then a Lee collet die Trim case Uniform primer pocket Chamfer/Deburr Seat primer add powder, seat bullet. If its new brass I will also uniform the flash hole. The only sort of "extra" things I do is uniforming the flash hole and primer pocket. Up until recently I was only FL resizing so the two extra dies will probably make the most difference. I ordered a Bartlein barrel that should be here around November. Its going to be 24in long and have a slightly lighter contour. |
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Easy come easy go
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else. |
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Gil P.
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/01/2012 Location: Henderson, NV Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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I seriously doubt that, im content with what I have now. Things like turning case necks and weighing brass seems like it would be a waste of my time no matter what kind of rifle I was shooting. I'm not after THAT kind of accuracy. I have no desire to use benchrest style brass prep techniques, tactical matches seem neat though. Do you use a digital scale? It would probably speed things up for me, just looking for advice on what to look for. Ive been using a beam scale and lee dippers, but it takes forever. Im over thinking this brass prep stuff... I just gotta get out and shoot! |
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Easy come easy go
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else. |
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Alan Robertson
Optics Master Joined: October/31/2009 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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I have a little Frankford Arsenal digital scale that was on sale at Midway a year or two ago for under $20 and was within .2 gr, but I've quit using it. It was fun at first, but the batteries went out, so it just got upgraded (jk). I just got a new scale shipped to me for $25- the Horizon HA30. I bought it on an auction site from a US company (the scale is made in China) and am so impressed with it, I'm just going to start another thread for a review. I've already used to quickly sort out six boxes of bullets. |
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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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You also uave the argument of volume charges vs weighting each charge. Many use progressive presses with measure by volume or just set their powder thrower and then just dump a whole tray of brass at once. I use both of the ways 90% of the time. I can load 223 ammo on my hornady progressive and get 1/2 moa quality ammo out of it with no brass prep whatsoever for my ar. Once i worked up the load my gun liked i just turned out 1000 of them. They have been very accurate for me. |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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Alan Robertson
Optics Master Joined: October/31/2009 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 1763 |
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Gil P.
I mentioned the Lee hand prime earlier and just discovered that Lee no longer makes that little gem. Sinclair, K&N and others make adjustable hand prime tools for the BR crowd, but get out your checkbook. An outfit called SmartReloader has recently made an appearance in the marketplace and they have an autoprime- type machine that's cheap. I've not tried any of their tools and think they may be Chinese reloader equipment- no clue except price. Here's a pic of the Autoprime XR (not anywhere near the tool the old Autoprime was) and the hand prime. There's a third model now, the Ergoprime, which would be my choice if this one gives up, since the Autoprime is not that sensitive and will build up your grip. Note that both Lee tools shown require proprietary shell holders, the SR tool mentioned above, does not. |
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"Garg'n uair dhuisgear"
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gulf1263
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/15/2011 Location: Alaska Status: Offline Points: 212 |
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Have you used the machine that checks bullet accuracy..until you spend the $1400.00+ for that all the other stuff is a waste of time.
I believe it is called a Juenke (?), then you have to make sure your chamber is straight, action and bolt are straight with the barrel, etc., etc., etc. Clint Smith does not do almost any prep work on his .308 Win loads and seem to to be able to make head shots at 700+ yards with regularity because of his skill. He does not even sort cases by brand. Sometimes I think we as shooters spend to much time fiddling and not enough time shooting to increase our skill level. Bell, Taylor, et al did not spend any time fiddling, used factory ammo, stalked the animal until they were close enough and made the shot. Charles Petty and others have done a variety of studies in the field of primer make, depth, etc. and found not a lot of statistical variation at ranges out to 400 yards. I will bet $5.00 that for most of us our aiming error is greater than the difference the case prep makes. In other words, shot, hunt, have fun and don't worry about all the fancy case prep unless you shooting hi-power rifle, F-Class, 1200 yard, etc. We should be having fun...not punishing ourselves over some small detail. YMMV Art |
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Good day.
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