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Mark 4 vs Zeiss Conquest vs Nightforce?

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Tactical Scopes
Forum Description: Police and military tools of the trade
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11824
Printed Date: March/28/2024 at 20:53
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Topic: Mark 4 vs Zeiss Conquest vs Nightforce?
Posted By: brencat
Subject: Mark 4 vs Zeiss Conquest vs Nightforce?
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 15:47
Hi all. First post here and need some suggestions. I currently own a like-new Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20 x 50mm (Z-plex) mounted to a Sako TRG-22 .308 and used for recreational benchrest shooting only at typically not more than 300yrds. In addition, I also own a NIB Nikon Monarch 6.5-20 x 44 (#6558 target dot reticle) which is sitting in my safe unused.
 
For my purposes, I am now considering a lower power tactical scope in the ~ 4.5-14 x 50mm range given their larger FOV and exit pupil, plus I also want a different reticle and the flexibility to go on the rare long-range shoot.
 
Will probably look to sell the Nikon regardless, since it's not being used. If I also sell the Zeiss 6.5-20 x 50, that would give me ~ $1000 to put toward:
 
1. Leupold Mark 4 LR/T 4.5-14 x 50mm with TMR reticle
2. Nightforce 3.5-15 x 50mm with NP-R2 reticle
3. IOR 4-14 x 50 with non-illuminated MP-8 reticle
4. The lower power Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14 x 50mm with Rapid Z-1000 reticle
 
OR... just simply keep my 6.5-20 Conquest and send in to have the reticle changed to Z-1000 !
 
The clarity of the glass is most important factor to me since I sit on a bench. My concerns are:
 
Nightforce -- 50% heavier and indestructible but not necessarily better glass
Mark 4 -- Cost but not necessarily better glass
IOR -- Looks really interesting! But warranty not as good as Zeiss or Leupold
 
Really could use some help of what you all would do. Thanks in advance.



Replies:
Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 16:01
Send the 6.5-20X50 to Zeiss and have the reticle changed to the Rapid Z-1000, and get a 20MOA base. Thats my vote. Oh yea I'm a cheapskate.Wink


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Send the 6.5-20X50 to Zeiss and have the reticle changed to the Rapid Z-1000, and get a 20MOA base. Thats my vote. Oh yea I'm a cheapskate.Wink
Well, looks like I won't be able to send my scope in for a Rapid-Z reticle change.  Looking around on their site (which is a disastrous unorganized mess btw), I came across this note:
 
"Please be advised that there is currently no available option to retrofit the Zeiss Rapid-Z reticles into previously purchased Zeiss riflescopes with a standard reticle. This is to ensure that customers who want to purchase a new Zeiss riflescope with the Rapid-Z reticle are given priority attention. We thank you for your understanding."
So I guess the easy option is out. Bummer.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 16:52
All are good scopes.  There is a significant difference between what you "want" and what you "need."  Buy what you want.

I like Nightforce, great experiences, great scopes; I like IOR's product but have had bad CustServ experiences and cannot recommend; I like Conquest and have had great experiences with the scopes and their CustServ.

For bench, weight is mostly irrelevant, clarity is important, and I don't see that you gain much from a ranging reticule (ranging with the reticule is very perishable - do it often to do it well.)

Go with what you want.

All choices listed are better than the Leupold, in my opinion. I'd lean toward the Nightfoce, but many will disagree.  I can say this for certain: the very best purchasing experiences I have had came from SWFA - be wary of doing business elsewhere.  And SWFA doesn't sell Nightforce.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 16:53
And why do you need 20X for a 300 yard shot?

Buy for the common shot, not the "I might shoot..." shot.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 17:11
Thanks Rancid. I have dealt with Alex Roy @ Eurooptic in the past for my Zeiss and I like them -- and they sell Nightforce. They also seem to have better prices than SWFA but you have to ask for it. Is SWFA the same way?
 
At least you answered one of my questions -- that the Zeiss Conquest is better than the Leupold Mark 4, which I suspected. Let's see what others here say.
 
The other problem is I have no local dealer nearby where I can see the Nightforce or IOR to compare the glass to my Conquest, so I don't know if I'm overpaying for a Nightforce nor whether the IOR warranty process is worth my effort.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 18:59
IN my humble opinion, you aren't overpaying for Nightforce and, so long as you stay away from their newest scopes, you aren't overpaying for the IOR either.  If you buy Leupold, you ARE overpaying.

Conquest is a good scope, there might be no reason to change - except that you need a little less magnification.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 19:05
the nf is the best choice in all catagories and none of the others come close, and the leo is better than the zeiss in all catagories-- glass is a small part of the equation in tactical scopes, and the zeiss doesn't even qualify as a tactical scope, (plastic turrets, hash marks don't go completely around the turret)


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 19:36
He didn't ask for a tactical scope, and he said glass was more important.
Naaaa!


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 20:03
As this is  a bench rifle, shooting 300 yards and less, I see no need for a tactical scope.  The Conquest would do just fine.  Out to 300 yards, you should have no problem doping the scope.

If it were a 600+ yard gun, my recommendation would change; however, for a bench .308 inside 300 yards in full light, get what you want, the Conquest is all you need - but, as said before, there is a dramatic difference between want and need.

I do like my NF and can't say enough good things about it. Some have better glass, but not much better (at least in full light situations.)

The NF is a great scope.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 21:49
Brencat - first things first SWFA has a 110% price guarantee to have the LOWEST PRICE.
I personally would not buy a quality scope any where else unless it was a brand that they do not carry which would be Nightforce or U.S. Optics.
 
Second SWFA allows you to TRADE IN optics on the purchase of  your choice - simply click on the samplelist link and click on the trade in form to bring it up.  Since you have a
6.5 to 20x50 Zeiss Conquest you know what good glass looks like and you may not be happy with anything less than (U..S. Optics, Nightforce, Schmidt Bender, Kahles, Swarovski,or Zeiss)  You do have a TRG22 which is a "tactical rifle" and as such I would be inclined to put a tactical scope on it but I'm inclined to put a tactical scope on everything.
I will note that Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14x50 long range tactical scope may not have the worlds best glass but it' not bad and the clicks are consistent and it has 100moa of internal adjustment. since a duplex can be bought for  $974.95. and   the Nightforce is about $1425. I would hope you got something for the half again as much money.
I will suggest other options for you at this point:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-13263-2278-new-kahles-45-18x50-helia-k418-30mm-riflescope.aspx - KLS10383 http://www.swfa.com/pc-13263-2278-new-kahles-45-18x50-helia-k418-30mm-riflescope.aspx">New%20Kahles%204.5-18x50%20Helia%20K418%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 New Kahles 4.5-18x50 Helia K418 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Plex
  • 30mm
  • Target Turrets
  • 2nd Focal Plane
SWFA: $1,499.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-13263-2278-new-kahles-45-18x50-helia-k418-30mm-riflescope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=13263&variantid=13277">Buy%20Now
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9236-284-new-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx - 947P4L http://www.swfa.com/pc-9236-284-new-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx">New%20Schmidt%20&%20Bender%204-16x50%20Police%20Marksman%20LP%2034mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 New Schmidt & Bender 4-16x50 Police Marksman LP 34mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated P4F
  • 34mm
  • Double Turn Knob
  • Side Focus
  • 1/4 MOA
SWFA: $3,248.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9236-284-new-schmidt-bender-4-16x50-police-marksman-lp-34mm-riflescope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=9236&variantid=9212">Buy%20Now
http://www.swfa.com/pc-7295-284-new-schmidt-bender-3-12x50-police-marksman-ii-34mm-riflescope.aspx - 944P3 http://www.swfa.com/pc-7295-284-new-schmidt-bender-3-12x50-police-marksman-ii-34mm-riflescope.aspx">New%20Schmidt%20&%20Bender%203-12x50%20Police%20Marksman%20II%2034mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 New Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50 Police Marksman II 34mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • P-3 Mil-Dot
  • 34mm
  • Double Turn Knob
  • Side Focus
  • 1/4 MOA
SWFA: $2,678.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-7295-284-new-schmidt-bender-3-12x50-police-marksman-ii-34mm-riflescope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=7295&variantid=7272">Buy%20Now
http://www.swfa.com/pc-10162-292-ior-3-18x42-tactical-35mm-rifle-scope.aspx - 301848 http://www.swfa.com/pc-10162-292-ior-3-18x42-tactical-35mm-rifle-scope.aspx">IOR%203-18x42%20Tactical%2035mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 3-18x42 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • MP-8
  • 35mm
  • Side Focus
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free IOR 35mm Medium Rings w/ Purchase
SWFA: $1,494.95
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 22:10

 

2007 T-Bone Riflescope Optical Rating Scale

 

10 - Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

9.5 - Kahles CL MultiZero

9 - Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski PH & American, Zeiss Classic

8.5 - X.O.T.I.C.

8 - Kahles KX

7.5 - Zeiss Conquest

7 - Leupold VX-7, IOR Valdada

6.5 - Bushnell Elite 4200, Nightforce, Nikon Monarch

6 - Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Weaver Grand Slam

5.5 - Burris Black Diamond XTR & Euro

5 - Burris Signature Select, Meopta, Pentax Lightseeker, Super Sniper, Trijicon

4.5 - Sightron

4 - Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Simmons Aetec (pre-Meade)

3.5 - Nikon Buckmaster

3 -  Burris Fullfield II, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Millet, Mueller, Redfield USA

2.5 - Leatherwood, Simmons, Swift

2 - ATN, Tasco

1.5 - Barska, Leapers

1 - BSA, NcStar

Thanks to SWFA we have an idea how t hese scopes compare optically.


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 22:11
then why are 3 out of the 4 choices tactical scopes??


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 22:13
To give him a choice of scopes he has not previously considered which may suit his purpose.  In particular scopes carried by SWFA .

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 22:21

was in reference to beltfeds remark



Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/07/2008 at 23:16
Thanks to all who have replied. Interesting also to note that on T-Bone's optical rating scale, that the Zeiss Conquest rates higher than both the Nightforce and the Leupold Mark 4.
 
While I thought it might be interesting to upgrade to a tactical scope, perhaps the best choice in this case is to simply walk away.   The fact of the matter is, given a recent family incident, I don't have an extra $500+ at this moment to make up the difference between what I might get by selling my Conquest + the Nikon to afford a Nightforce or even a $1500 Kahles or IOR.  My price point is ~ $1100 to put my out of pocket at +/- $100-$200. 
 
If I'm understanding most of you correctly, since the glass is my first consideration, it doesn't appear anything in my price range can beat the Conquest I already have -- is this a fair statement?
 
And finally the Zeiss warranty, like Leupold is terrific. I'm sure Nightforce is good, but many of the others sound like it might be a hassle or a long turnaround if something went wrong.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/08/2008 at 09:16
ask this same question on snipershide and see if the conquest has the best glass.  they don't use the T-bone over there.  if you want to go a bit more in power get a 8x32 nf bench for about 1100.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/08/2008 at 09:46
Sniper's Hide is a good forum with good information and some very knowledgable people; however, it is filled with 18-year-olds who want to be snipers some day and with 22 year olds who are snipers now and want to kick everyone's online ass (and has a fair number of armchair quarterbacks who buy a tactical gun, put it in a gun safe, and sell it year later, never having shot it.)

The needs of the deployed sniper are very different than the needs of a civilian shooting at the range. A tactical scope in this situation isn't "needed" but it would function well.

Owning both Nightforce and Conquest, I constantly disagree with the Tbone list (and was the first, probably its first few days up, to point out that Nightforce is, in my estimation, a far better scope - and priced accordingly. Walk the line at many long-range and/or tactical matches you see few (if any) Conquest and many, many Nightforce.

With all that said, my advice: spend some time at the range deciding what you do and do not like about your scope.  If you see someone shooting a scope you like, ask to look through it, most will let you.  Decide what you want and why.

For now, the Conquest is a great scope and you will probably only be happy trading to an IOR or Nightforce or higher (if glass is your primary concern.)


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: July/08/2008 at 15:42
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

then why are 3 out of the 4 choices tactical scopes??
After I posted I realized that. His primary concern was glass and the Conquest does have better glass than the Mk 4. I have a Savage 10FP in a Bell and Carlson tactical stock with the Conquest 4.5-14X50 on it. Looks like a tactical rifle, but I use it at the range for practice. It's cheaper and easier on me than my Remington Sendero 300 Win Mag with a Leupold 6,5-20X50 AO, that I use for long range. I hope to upgrade the Leupy some day with a real tactical scope. For now it will do.


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/10/2008 at 00:45
I laid out three scopes today at the local gun store a Swarovski Z6 a Kahles and a Trijicon and to nobobys surprise the Z6 has the best glass but I am fairly sure that my Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 FFP scope will kill somthing with astounding reliablity at any distance you could hope to use any of these scopes at and in all likelyhood more than twice the distance because you can dial in correction.  Everyone knows the glass is better but if you cant dial in correction to adjust for trajectory and wind drift you are fairly limited as to range and the added high resolution glass is no help in striking the target without the ability to dial in correction all you can do is watch the target run away.  Leaves me thinking:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx - 414530 http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">IOR%204-14x50%20Tactical%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 30mm
  • Exposed Knobs
  • Side Focus
SWFA: $1,149.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=12303&variantid=12317">Buy%20Now


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Mithran
Date Posted: July/10/2008 at 01:46
Bah, grab an SS10x42 for 300 bucks, use the hell out of it, get good with it, and then after a little while you will find out what you really need.  You're not shooting at running insurgents, so you don't need a variable with low end mag, and your not shooting +1000 yards so you won't need more than 10x mag.  It's built like a tank, repeatable, durable and clear, and if it's not what you want, they hold their value much better than most other scopes, and if you do like it but want something more than keep it as a backup and you'll only be out 300 bucks.  Seems easy to me. 
 
The Nightforce kicks serious ass but Rancid can agree with me on this, some of the best shooters in the world did it with 10x fixed scopes or lower for many many years, and did it well. 
 
Edited for mispelling.Loco


-------------
Fight Smarter
Not Harder


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/10/2008 at 11:39
I agree with Mithran on most points; however, going back to the original question from the firt post, if glass is the most important part of the decision, only the IOR or Nightforce will be better glass.

If you want to make a few bucks, sell the Conquest and the Nikon and buy a SuperSniper: good glass, tactical scope, very rugged, not as heavy as Nightforce.

At the end of the day, I recommend you buy what you want - not what you think you need.  The Zeiss is a good scope, has more than enough magnification (which can be dialed down to the minimum, some people forget that), and has good glass.

Since shooting is done on the bench with a max range of 300 yards, in truth, I see no reason to buy another scope - unless you just want one.
You really don't "need" a mil dot or ranging reticule, nor do you need tactical (but it is a tac gun, and a damn fine one),  so forget "need" and decide what you "want" and move in that direction.

Mithran is also right that a good 10X can place hits on a target out to 800 yards and beyond, assuming the shooter does his part.

I am not an advocate of too much magnification (having learned precision shooting on a 10X) so I own nothing higher than 17X (USO SN3, great scope.)  And for shots up to but not exceeding 300 yards, glass ain't gonna be a problem for you, get what you want.

Of your list, I'd buy Nightforce, with IOR as a second; but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the scope you have now.  If you want, go to Kenton Industries, get a BDC for the scope, it'll be allot cheaper than all new glass, and you will have range-specific load data on the elevation turret - easy to make dope changes.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/12/2008 at 00:17
Seriously, thank you all for your replies. Family is going to PA for a BBQ this weekend and I may sneak out for 30 mins to visit a local dealer near our friend's place that carries Nightforce. May finally get to see one (I hope!) so will see what all the rage is about.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 11:54
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

 
Leaves me thinking:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx - 414530 http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">IOR%204-14x50%20Tactical%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 30mm
  • Exposed Knobs
  • Side Focus
SWFA: $1,149.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12303-292-ior-4-14x50-tactical-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=12303&variantid=12317">Buy%20Now
 
Update 7/16/08:
 
Wanted to let you all know that I posted a similar question in the Snipershide forum and Scott Berish from Libertyoptics replied that the IOR 4-14x50 which urimaginaryfrnd linked above is "a step or two above the Zeiss Conquest" with respect to optical quality/glass. He also mentioned if I'm primarily interested in glass, Nightforce or Leupy Mark 4 would NOT be an upgrade for me.  I value Scott's opinion because he has a reputation of being extremely detail oriented and critical.  Just wanted to put that out there for those of you who helped me out in this forum.  Thanks again, B.


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 13:20
I agree.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 13:44
the absence of three posters on your questions in sh is louder than the one's you got, tactical, archlight and lindy.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 16:41
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

the absence of three posters on your questions in sh is louder than the one's you got, tactical, archlight and lindy.
 
Sorry Dale, I'm new here and there. Care to explain what you mean??


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 22:20
When I look at the SWFA scope rating scale Nightforce and IOR are rated the same and above the Zeiss Conquest.  http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8185   I own several Nightforce scopes and I am very pleased with them. I have looked though some IOR's and went with the Nightforce. Initially I was what ever with regards to NF scopes but after using a friend's I changed my mind.

Plus if their glass is not that good, why are they fairly common at bench rest competitions? Also I think that Rancid Coolaid's comments are very appropriate that there is nothing wrong with what you have.

And just a thought, but Liberty optics does not sell Nightforce.




Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/17/2008 at 23:31
I think the Nightforce and the IOR are very similar quality glass and both better than conquest but neither as good as Diavari.
 
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9716-310-new-zeiss-6-24x56-victory-diavari-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx - 5217559973 http://www.swfa.com/pc-9716-310-new-zeiss-6-24x56-victory-diavari-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">New%20Zeiss%206-24x56%20Victory%20Diavari%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 New Zeiss 6-24x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Rapid 1000
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • Target Knobs
  • LotuTec Protective Coating
SWFA: $2,199.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9716-310-new-zeiss-6-24x56-victory-diavari-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=9716&variantid=9692">Buy%20Now
Also I looked at a Z6 the other day and the glass was definately something to brag about
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12649-978-new-swarovski-2-12x50-z6-30mm-riflescope.aspx - 59316 http://www.swfa.com/pc-12649-978-new-swarovski-2-12x50-z6-30mm-riflescope.aspx">New%20Swarovski%202-12x50%20Z6%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 New Swarovski 2-12x50 Z6 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Ballistic Reticle
  • 30mm
SWFA: $1,858.95
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12649-978-new-swarovski-2-12x50-z6-30mm-riflescope.aspx">More%20Info... http://www.swfa.com/addtocart.aspx?returnurl=showcategory.aspx&productid=12649&variantid=12663">Buy%20Now


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 00:09

this question was beat to death on sh, liberty is just starting out and does specials on ior, not good or bad just lack of experience in long range shooting, most of the opinions go about 50/50 glass between ior and nf with over scope going to nf. neither the conquest nor the ior have the real world track record to qualify in tactical or bench/target .

not knocking the conquest but its not as good as the mk4, in either tracking or overall construction.

 


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 03:39
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

most of the opinions go about 50/50 glass between ior and nf with over scope going to nf. 

Where on earth are you seeing 50/50 opinions on glass quality between the two?  Even on SH, which has historically been about the most anti-IOR board I've ever seen, among die-hard Nightforce fans (many of whom hate IOR with a passion for one reason or another fairly or not) by and large even most of these guys will concede IOR has better glass.  In fact, I can't think of a single person who has ever stated Nightforce has better glass.  Many will say they're close enough it doesn't matter, IOR isn't enough better to change opinion on the overall scope, they'll say they prefer Nightforce for other reasons, that glass quality isn't the most important thing, etc, and that's fine. 

But that's not what brencat is asking about.   He's not taking it to war.  He's shooting targets and specifically states glass quality is of the utmost importance to him. For that reason, IOR is the best choice of the ones listed.  Though, I see on the other thread he lists USO as a choice so if he can afford that it could skew things.

I don't know, maybe your experiences have been different than mine and most others.  Just recently I was comparing a 5.5-22X56 NSX to my 3-18 as well as my $320 4-14 Falcon.  Honestly, the NSX was closer in glass quality to the Falcon than it was the IOR.  Yes it was better,  but if you had to group two it would have been those two as closest with the IOR out on another planet all by itself.  

Don't get me wrong, there are many very good reasons to choose the NSX as it is an excellent scope, but having better or even as good glass as an IOR is not one of them IMHO.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 09:21
its going on a trg not a remington 700 , if you want spinners on your bmw be my guest.
watching the post for about 3 years in sh brings me to that conclusion, the new ior 9x36 i just got doesn't have better glass, if as good as my, 8x32 nf bench, and was defective from the manufacturere, -- if sh is so anti ior why did they make a special edition group buy of the sh 3x18-- just the 50% who liked them???


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 13:36
Glass quality.  Glass quality.  Those disliking IORs on SH do not dislike them for glass quality.  Can you find me one single example of any of them, much less 50%, claiming Nightforce NSX is better for glass quality? 

And yes, getting out a bit more gives you a more complete picture sometimes.  Search IOR vs. Nightforce there, then go do it at a place like Snipers' Paradise and you'll get the polar opposite response--not just glass quality but the overall scopes in general--which shows SH to be unfriendly to IOR in comparison.  The SH edition scope was despite all that, but no, 50% of the membership did not buy them.  With that many people in one place, there were enough wanting it to make it happen.

Finally, have you compared your 8-32 benchrest model to an NSX?  Even Nightforce will tell you, you can expect a much better view through their benchrest models than the NSX's.  So if you're talking about NSX glass, be sure you're using NSX glass as your basis for comparison.

He wants good glass.  He's not using a Barska or even a Leupold, but he's already using a Conquest.  Telling him to go spend $1500 on an NSX because its glass will be that much better than a Zeiss is setting him up for disappointment.  And possible anger.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 13:47
Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready


-------------
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: skilly1979
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 14:17
i would like to know why sightron is number 5 in t-bones rating when it should be in the top 3 as im concerned. The slll scopes are superior scopes that are as clear as most of your top scopes on the market, and the scope i have is better than any leupold, nikon, burris, simmons, tasco, weaver, redfield and so on. and im sure many others would agree.


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/18/2008 at 23:41

have compared the benchrest with my nsx 3.5x15, the difference is mostly one less lens group in the ao, but the bench is still better glass and they usually go for around $1100. don't think you can get the search on sh to work very well -- notorious evil thing. and yes my post is at least on in sh that says the nf glass is better, but then snipersparadise likes leos. as do a lot on sh. again its not going on a hunting gun its a trg, so again if you want spinners on your bmw be my guest.



Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 02:59
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

yes my post is at least on in sh that says the nf glass is better

That's what it says alright. 
Quote don't think you can get the search on sh to work very well

Uh huh.    You make the assertion that 50% believe they have better glass, but when asked to provide a single post from a single person ever saying that ever, you cannot.  So you fall back on tossing out another insult instead.  I guess that's easier than admitting you were mistaken.
Quote if you want spinners on your bmw be my guest.

Though you're either too lazy or lack the capacity to think of a new one so you use the same zinger twice in a row.  It's really not good enough for repeated use.  Really.
Quote but then snipersparadise likes leos. 

OK, I guess you couldn't understand what I wrote and have apparently never been there.  Since you were too lazy, I took a whole 10 seconds out of my day and did it for you.  I was speaking of threads like this,  http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=13938&hl - http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=13938&hl
and this, http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=19570&hl - http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=19570&hl or this http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=23411&hl - http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/index.php?showtopic=23411&hl .  Think what you could find with a 20 second search.

The point was broadening of one's horizons is sometimes a good idea.  If all your information is gleaned from one source you might not be getting the whole picture.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 05:09

Jon A, your getting "danger close" to having your privileges here permanently suspended due to your demeanor and overall smart-assery. It's getting old...fast.

If you can't make your point without insulting someone in the process, then you don't have what it takes to be a member here.
 
Agreement with other members here is not required, but if you can't disagree any better than what I've seen so far, you might want to change AO's.
I'll help ya pack.
 
You decide.   


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 11:09
Thank you Cheaptrick.


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 11:38
Ditto, and Ditto again
 
Dale's got a tough hide & doesn't have to prove anything but that ain't the point boy.


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God save the Empire!


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 15:27
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

If you can't make your point without insulting someone in the process,

An insult like putting spinners on your bmw?  Did you miss that or are there are two sets of rules?  Note the complete lack of smart-assery on my part until after being insulted twice.


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 15:29
Where on earth are you seeing 50/50 opinions on glass quality between the two? 
 
- could be wrong here but several phrases in this reply sound a little on the confrontational side to me.  Now I am admittedly thin skinned however.


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God save the Empire!


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/19/2008 at 20:36
Resume fire.
 
Out.


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/20/2008 at 00:08
Gentlemen, while a little confrontation has never hurt anyone, let's make sure we maintain civility.  Everybody here is pretty intelligent, so I doubt reading comprehension is an issue.  If you feel you are not being understood correctly, rephrasing your point may be in order.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: July/20/2008 at 18:20
if your interested
 
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=656045#Post656045 - http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=656045#Post656045


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 01:20
Well if actions speak louder than words take note that my high dollar scopes are all Leupold Mark 4 Tacticals.  I am convinced that the glass is good enough to kill a man size target at extreme long range and since Im not trying to take a photo through the glass I dont care that it isnt up to Hasselblad glass standards. What I need is a scope that has reliable adjustments and lots of internal adjustment and Leupold has that going for it.  My rifles are designed as counter sniper weapons for priority asset protection.

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 02:17
Brencat said glass quality was what was important to him.  That was the question, that's what I answered.  He didn't mention anything about being able to "counter" the snipers who might be after his assets.   I can mention, in my experience, the adjustments on the IOR 4-14 are absolutely dead nuts reliable.  Though since I'm not quite sure what exactly a "counter sniper" weapon is, I feel I'm unqualified to recommend it for that duty.

You're right, ILya, rephrasing might be in order.  Maybe you can do it better.  Would you advise somebody who wants better glass than his Conquest to spend $1500 on an NSX for that reason?


Posted By: JimmyL
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 05:05
Well, i just bought Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25X50 Mil-dot about month ago, and i really like it. My choice is Leupold, because it has reasonable good optics, it is durable and it has 15 MOA elevation in one full circle. If i remember correct, NighForce it is about 9 or 10 moa?
Leupold works like a dream and 25x has enough power for really long-range shooting. One of my very highly skilled fellow shooter said that if he has to choose between Zeiss conquest and Leupold Mark 4, answer would be Leupold also.


Posted By: brencat
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 09:13
After a bunch more investigating I'm basically sold on the IOR 4-14x50 illuminated MP-8 (with the new exposed knobs). For ~ $1100 this should be perfect for my purposes and seems like good relative value vs the competition. I like the reticle and what I'm hearing about the glass.
 
It would be nice to have the 100MOA adj that the Mark 4 and NSX have but not really necessary for me at my ranges. The 70 or so that the IOR has will still be better than the 45 of my Conquest. The Mark 4 4.5-14x50 TMR is overpriced IMO...by at least $200.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 09:24
Coming back late to the show, but I too have posted, on SH and here, that the glass in my NF is every bit as good as the SH IOR 3-18X I owned - definitely  not inferior to.  When it came to keeping one and selling the other, I sold the IOR.
I truly and sincerely hate that the ocular on the NF spins as the power changes, it drives me insane; however, even with that visceral hatred for that particular feature, I kept the NF.

Brencat, you will enjoy the IOR, the glass is better than the Conquest and the features will be good.

Enjoy.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 12:54
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Brencat said glass quality was what was important to him.  That was the question, that's what I answered.  He didn't mention anything about being able to "counter" the snipers who might be after his assets.   I can mention, in my experience, the adjustments on the IOR 4-14 are absolutely dead nuts reliable.  Though since I'm not quite sure what exactly a "counter sniper" weapon is, I feel I'm unqualified to recommend it for that duty.

You're right, ILya, rephrasing might be in order.  Maybe you can do it better.  Would you advise somebody who wants better glass than his Conquest to spend $1500 on an NSX for that reason?


Conquest has very good glass.  Nightforce is an excellent scope with glass being the only letdown.  To my eyes, Nightforce does not offer any optical improvement to the Conquest.

I suspect that Nightforce would be more robust and offer a greater reticle choice, but for better optics you have to look elsewhere.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 14:08
To my eyes, the Nightforce is better glass.

And:




-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 16:05
Well, opinions differ.  The Nightforce scopes that I have seen were about on par with Bushnell Elite 4200 (I think all the Nightforce scopes I have looked at in any detail were from the NXS line; I recall playing with a benchrest model, but not for too long).

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 16:07
You must just have weird eye's Rancid, or maybe it is all the coolaid.Poker

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: July/23/2008 at 16:36
Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: steve56
Date Posted: August/16/2010 at 12:16
i had my conquest on my milspec remington for one day.had the z8oo plex.the rectical was almost as big as the half inch target dot on a 2 inch target at 100 yrds.the bolt hit the side of the scope and hit the rubber eye peice, I had med rings.4x14x50. glass wise i could tell the difference between leuopold or zeiss.waaaaaay out there the loupy seemed to be better. i took it back anyways. after looking through the br nf,i want one.any one got one for sale used?trade for ?


Posted By: steve56
Date Posted: August/16/2010 at 12:18
night and day difference between 4200 and nf


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/16/2010 at 12:46
Resurrecting an old one!

I have long since sold the NF, bought an IOR 4.5-14 FFP and still hold that NF glass is better than 4200 - but probably not quite IOR.

Hensoldt is now where it's at. Save as long as it takes to buy Hensoldt!

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: steve56
Date Posted: August/16/2010 at 13:01
hell,just save and buy a scope with fluorite glass.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/16/2010 at 16:49
I've seen the fluorite glass, still like the Hensoldt more.


Opinions vary.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/17/2010 at 08:18
Loupy glas better than Zeiss?
 
Check please!


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: August/17/2010 at 10:44
Keep going guys the more disagreement the more knowledgable I get,Thanks Get Your Popcorn Ready

-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/17/2010 at 11:03
If it had been said that Loupy was a tougher scope than the Conquest I couldn't argue, but to say they have better glass...................
 
I think I'll go over to the Hide to the "You might be a Mall Ninja if", thread.


-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/17/2010 at 11:39
Leupold needed a headline, they tried the fluorite glass trick ("our glass now is not only better, it's best!"), problem is it ain't true.

Then again, when your glass sucks, a slight improvement is noteworthy, but the industry left Leupold in the dust about 20 years ago.

If you can't celebrate your supremacy, celebrate mediocrity - and call it greatness.

Conquest, with plastic turrets, has treated me better than leupold.  I haven't broken a Conquest yet, I can't say the same for Loopy.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: August/17/2010 at 13:42
Love the hide "Mall Ninja"Laugh AboveYing Yang

-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/18/2010 at 05:30
I broke a Conquest. I still really like them though.



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