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Body sizing only?.....Neck sizing?

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Topic: Body sizing only?.....Neck sizing?
Posted By: sniper13
Subject: Body sizing only?.....Neck sizing?
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 12:47
Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?

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pulling a trigger is easy....hitting your mark is intelligence



Replies:
Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 13:04
Can't say I've ever heard of a body sizing die only. Perhaps he meant a FL die?


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 13:17
That would be my thought too Roy.  neck sizing allows the casing to be shot sized to your chamber.  Brass has to be reused in same gun.  Case fits snugger once shot sized, Neck sizing is what holds the bullets.  Final part of this equation if you want to hunt with these reloads it is recommneded to use a Lee Factory crimp die to increase holding power on bullets.

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BillyWayne
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 14:05
Redding makes a body sizing die.  You use it when you are neck sizing only and after multiple reloads your brass gets too tight in the camber.  Instead of full length you use the body die which does not do the neck. 

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John 11:35
The're taking the hobbits to Isengard!!


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 15:00
With a FL die, you can do partial-FL resizing, where you set the case back only .001-.002. You will need a case comparator such as the Hornady (Stoney Point) to do this. The advantages are that you get a less sloppy fit (relatively speaking) to the chamber, similar to neck sizing only, but because you are resizing the neck and setting the shoulder back a bit and - to a lesser degree - the case body, you avoid (for more firings anyway) the eventual need to FL-resize and trim brass that has only been neck-sized. Another benefit as opposed to FL-resizing is that you work the brass less, extending case life.

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 16:44
With all the guns that I reload for I have Redding 3 die sets. I never try to use ammo from one gun to the next, so if I get to the point where a particular round becomes hard to chamber, I simply run it through the FL die and rock on. I have been known to load on the warm side, so in all honesty, I have usually experienced loose primer pockets first before signs of a round in need of a trip through the FL die.


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 17:43
Originally posted by sniper13 sniper13 wrote:

Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?
 
You need to listen to that guy, especially if he mentioned the Lee Collet Neck Sizer / Redding Body Die combination.
 
The Lee Collet Neck Sizer sizes the neck against a free floating mandrel.  When you fire a case in your chamber the neck brass is ironed onto the chamber walls and comes out very concentric (at least most of the chambers are reamed very concentric) and the Lee Collet floats to find the center of the neck and then the collets compress the neck brass onto the mandrel.  That makes for a neck with very little runout.
 
The Redding Body Die sizes the case body only and can be set to push the shoulder back but it does not touch the neck (which you have just sized with the Lee Collet).  The advantages are that you are getting rid of the expander ball which is the largest contributor to runout and lube inside the neck.
 
Those 2 dies can be bought for about the same as 1 full length die so cost is not a problem.
 
Another advantage is that you can neck size only until the case has expanded enough to become hard to chamber.  Then you use the Body Die to push the shoulder back a minimal amount of .001" or so.  You can measure that if you have a Hornady Headspace Gauge or just set your rifle up and repeatedly chamber and size until you go from a crush fit to just a slight contact at the shoulder which is indicated by a very slight crush fit.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 17:58
Guys I consider Sakomato 1 of the top 3 reloading authorities on the OT, listen to him!  He has help me alot! 
 
Speaking of which, Bob you posted something last week where you were steelwooling the necks and applying Mica?  Would you please tell us more on that.
 
Sorry guys I don't mean to steal your thread, maybe Bob could start a new one.  I am always interested in improving my groups and my 223 already regularly groups at 1/2"
 


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Mike McDonald
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 18:21
To me it's an abject waste of time unless you shoot a pure bench rest heavy rifle from a solid bench and heavy rest.
 
If your rifle has a spring loaded ejector and snap over extractor then you've already induced so much more error into the equation than the body/neck combo could ever account for.
 
F/L size new brass, trim to length, shoot, neck size until he shoulder needs to be bumped back, which is quite a few firings.  At that time, F/L size, trim to length, shoot, neck size, repeat as needed.
 
You'll be much better served to spend much more time at the range rather than the loading room.
It's a proven equation for better shooting.


Posted By: sniper13
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 18:23
Sakomato....that is exactly what he says to get...and I did...it will be here tomarrow, Thanks!

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pulling a trigger is easy....hitting your mark is intelligence


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 21:31

Okay, there are several things to chase and a mixed opinion about how much good it does (reference Mike McDonald's post).  The thing is, case prep is what really interests me.  If it doesn't interest you and you want to do the basics then you will do almost as well by concentrating on your rifle and shooting as Mike says.  If you enjoy creating the very best reloads then I can tell you how I do it.

The Lee Collet and Redding Body Die are an inexpensive way to load straight ammo.  There are other ways such as the Redding Bushing Dies but they are more complicated and neck turning is necessary.

About the Lee Collet;

They do not create a lot of bullet grip.  IOW, the mandrel is only .001" to .002" below bullet caliber.  That is one of the ways the Lee Collet keeps runout down.  I ordered some smaller mandrels from Lee and they specifically warned me that a tighter bullet grip would lead to more runout.  It is generally considered that any gripper tighter than .003" is counter productive anyway so the typical Lee Collet bullet grip of .001" is a little light but will do the job.
 
When sizing the neck it feels like you are not doing anything.  The die does not work like any other die in that you set the press so that it does not cam over.  The collets squeeze on the outside of the neck with 25 pounds of force on the lever or so.  If you put too much pressure on the die by camming over or leaning on the lever too much and you will pop the cap on the die.  The instructions say to adjust it down to the shell holder, lower the ram and adjust it 2 more full turns in.  I just run the lock nut up to the top of the threads which puts the lever in the most horizontal position
 
here is some further discussion and opinions (I am woods) http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/lee-collet-dies-44360/ - http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/lee-collet-dies-44360/
 
The Redding Body Die sizes the case body and enables you to push the shoulder back.  A case goes through a transition from new to 3 or 4 firings when it has expanded enough for the case to get in a bind when trapped between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder.  You can monitor this with a Hornady Headspace Gauge which takes measurement from the bolt face to the datum line
 
new case - 2.040"
once fired - 2.0485"
twice fired - 2.050"
3 times fired - 2.051" (slight crush fit)
4 times fired - 2.0515" (crush fit)
 
then it is time to push the shoulder back to 2.0505" or 2.051" for a slight contact at the shoulder. 
 
Now contrary to what Mike McDonald said, IMO after the first firing the ejector button can no long push the case to one side in the chamber because the case body has expanded and prevents this.  So neck sizing with no runout will center the bullet down the leade to the lands for a good start.
 
An exception to this would be if you have brass that is off center to begin with.  If you have brass that has more than .002" variance in neck thickness from one side to the other then that case will always have runout if measured on the bullet and even neck turning can not correct it
 
good brass is a prerequisite to consistant reduction in group size.
 
Personally I have beaten runout back into it's nasty little hole and am working on bullet grip and seating depth.  Bullets that are seated with a variance as little as .005" will have a slightly different point of impact.  If you combine several shots that vary in seating depth then your group size will be larger.
 
In order to make seating depth consistant then you have to control the inside of your neck.  Next time you are seating a set of bullets, feel the resistance and measure each one with a comparator.  If you feel one that is harder to seat than the others, measure it and you will see that you have a slightly longer OAL.  Any difference in seating pressure will change the OAL.  In my efforts to control the inside neck, I use pin gauges to get an accurate measurement and check for narrow spots or do-nuts and to check my consistancy
 
and thoroughly clean the inside of the neck with steel wool
 
and apply mica
 
In doing all this I have gone through a complete set of seating bullets and not had any variance in OAL and my velocities have shown a vast improvement is standard deviation.  My last 5 shots with my 338RUM were chonoed at 3191, 3182, 3182, 3189, 3189 and 3197 fps.  These 4 shots with my 6.5 rem mag were all very very close except for one
 
guess which one was slower than the others.
 
Now if all this seems kinda anal, it is.  But like I said that is what interests me and it has been a cumulative effect and my rifles are shooting good and it satisfies my inquisitive nature.
 


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 21:33
can i hire you to do all of my reloading??
you already have dies for most of my gunsExcellent


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

can i hire you to do all of my reloading??
you already have dies for most of my gunsExcellent
 
And deny you all that pleasure pyro!!  Head Banger
 
Get back with me in about 10 years when I retire (if I can afford to after Obummer ruins the economy) and we'll talk!
 
Really, this is just hitting the high spots without a lot of detail and hasn't gotten into reaming, weight sorting, neck turning, segregating (sp?) cases by number of firings, do-nuts, physically removing existing runout and a few others I've forgotten about right now.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: August/06/2009 at 23:49
Start with good brass. I have plenty of plinking brass but go with Lapua for the shots that count.

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 06:54
Wow Bob!  Thanks for taking the time to generate and share that report.  It cleared up several things I was confused about.
 
I am really enjoying my new Savage 12BTV in .223.  After starting and shooting Armscor Milsurp with poor results I bought virgin Hornady brass.  I only reamed and chamfered the mouths and press in CCI 450 Mag Sm rifle primers.  Using 26gr of Varget I have tried Sierra Spitzers, HPBT in 55gr and Hornady V-Max  and Moly V-Max and V-Max w/ cannelure in 55gr.
Groups vary from 0.75 to 0.38" @ 100yds.
I found that on the 2nd reload my groups tightened up for the same bullet.  This I attributed to shot sizing effects.
 
I am very happy with the results so far.  One of the things I noticed while cleaning the primer pocket prior to the 2nd reload was that I saw a few casings that the thru hole was noticably off center.  Besides the fact that ejecting the primer durng neck sizing might damage the mandrel's primer ejector pin do you feel that the hole being off center will cause a flyer or effect the POI?
 
What do you think of Hornady brass?  I originally bought it because of availability and a compromise between cost and quality.


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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BillyWayne
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 08:59
Hey sakomato, thanks for your input here.  I also like the Lee Neck Die with the Redding Body Die.  I get great groups using this method. 

-------------
John 11:35
The're taking the hobbits to Isengard!!


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:02
my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:16
Nope.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:21
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??
 
I think it dependents on how th eneck sizing die is made.  The Lee die has a free floating mandrel that centers on the neck maintaining concentricity.  If I understand Sakomato correctly.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:21
the reason i asked that is that it seems to me like using the lee collet neck sizer is a main factor to the equation??

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:26
I believe one of the reasons sakomato uses the Lee Collet is because of the floating bushing it uses. Redding has the same thing, it's just more expensive.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:27
what does redding call their version?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:43
Not sure, I don't use them.


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:50
I looked and they have two. Standard and Competition "S" bushing dies.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:53
i saw that, i wonder if the "S" types are that much better?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:56
Depends on how straight you want your reloads. We are talking hunting rifles.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 09:59
i guess maybe it would matter if you took at a lot of longer shots, but for my purposes i suppose it wouldnt be needed.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 11:52
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??
 
It matters very much.  The Lee Collet Neck die is unique in the way that it functions.  If you buy just a "neck die" then you have a die that uses the expander ball.  The expander ball is the problem.
 
The "bushing" style of dies are also a separate kind of die altogether and not like a regular neck sizer.  They are also different from the Lee Collet.  They have a bushing that is interchangeable that is a specific size for sizing the outside of the neck.  IOW if you are sizing a 270 win (just picking that one cause I know how much you like them pyro) then you might order a .302" bushing size and one on either side a .301" & .303".  The way you determine the bushing size you need is
 
caliber + total neck thickness - bullet grip = bushing size
.277" + .028" (.014" brass thickness ea side) - .003" = .302"
 
Then when you size the neck the die will form the OD of the neck to .302".  When you seat the bullet it should have approx .003" bullet grip.
 
Now bushing dies come with expander balls but they are useless and counterproductive.  Why go to all the trouble to size the OD of the neck to a specific measurement and then expand it with and expander?  So most just take the expander out. 
 
The thing to know about bushing dies (other than they are expensive and complicated) is that they will create runout unless you are into neck turning.  The reason is that when you size the neck to a specific outside measurement, you push all the irregularities in your neck to the inside.  Then when you seat the bullet you are canting your bullet away from the thick side because the thick side resists the seating pressure of the bullet more than the thin side. 
 
However, with a lot more work you can make the bushing dies produce good straight ammo and you have the added advantage of choosing your bullet grip of .001", .002" or .003" or even more.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 12:01
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

my question is this, is the neck die's brand important??? if i bought an rcbs neck die and then bought the redding  body die would that matter??
 
It matters very much.  The Lee Collet Neck die is unique in the way that it functions.  If you buy just a "neck die" then you have a die that uses the expander ball.  The expander ball is the problem.
 
The "bushing" style of dies are also a separate kind of die altogether and not like a regular neck sizer.  They are also different from the Lee Collet.  They have a bushing that is interchangeable that is a specific size for sizing the outside of the neck.  IOW if you are sizing a 270 win (just picking that one cause I know how much you like them pyro) then you might order a .302" bushing size and one on either side a .301" & .303".  The way you determine the bushing size you need is


that is some excellent stuff robert, you should write a book!
caliber + total neck thickness - bullet grip = bushing size
.277" + .028" (.014" brass thickness ea side) - .003" = .302"
 
Then when you size the neck the die will form the OD of the neck to .302".  When you seat the bullet it should have approx .003" bullet grip.
 
Now bushing dies come with expander balls but they are useless and counterproductive.  Why go to all the trouble to size the OD of the neck to a specific measurement and then expand it with and expander?  So most just take the expander out. 
 
The thing to know about bushing dies (other than they are expensive and complicated) is that they will create runout unless you are into neck turning.  The reason is that when you size the neck to a specific outside measurement, you push all the irregularities in your neck to the inside.  Then when you seat the bullet you are canting your bullet away from the thick side because the thick side resists the seating pressure of the bullet more than the thin side. 
 
However, with a lot more work you can make the bushing dies produce good straight ammo and you have the added advantage of choosing your bullet grip of .001", .002" or .003" or even more.

 im sorry asked this is like some of the stuff dale clifford talks about.
i guess it really doesnt much matter for me since i have only three of my calibers that they make a body die for, (22-250, .264win and .300win mag) no .375H&H for some reason and no 6.5rem mag. course i could try it out on one of them and see what it does for me, it cant hurt to try.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:34
Hey pyro
 
Keeping it simple
 
buy Lee Collet 300 win mag
buy Redding Body 300 win mag
spend less money
load straight ammo 
 
Big Grin
 
I do have a Lee Collet in 6.5 rem mag but I had to send a case to Lee and have them make me one.  I also have a Redding Body Die because I called them and they said it was not a listed item but they had one in stock.
 
The 22-250 is such a small case that it does not show as much improvement with small things like the 300 win mag will.  The 22-250 is also the only Lee Collet that I popped the cap on with too much pressure on the lever.  Guess the smaller amount of threads due to the smaller diameter cap couldn't take the stress.
 
So the 300 win mag will be a perfect candidate. 
 
You will enjoy not having to lube in the neck.
 
If you are concerned about not sizing because it doesn't feel like it do this - stick a bullet into the fired case neck before sizing and it will go in easy, size with the Lee Collet and try to stick the bullet in again.  It won't go and this will reassure you that you are indeed sizing the case neck.
 
Or for a retainer of $1,000 I will reload your cases for you.  PM me for address!  Laugh


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:36
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

  im sorry asked this is like some of the stuff dale clifford talks about.

 
Hey, I'm in good company!  Cool


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:39

LOVE the Lee Collet Dies too!

Sako, your posts and pics are outstanding! Thank you!  


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:41
i may have to try this stuff out, im always searching for something to shrink my groups, even though they are just hunting rifles.

so this $1000, how much reloading would that get me?Light It Up


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:45
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:


so this $1000, how much reloading would that get me?Light It Up
 
That is the retainer for the first year and we can talk about per load pricing.  Get Your Popcorn Ready


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:47
thats pretty steep, i better get a guarantee thats better than it will go bang!Laugh

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:58
I will issue you an ironclad guarantee!
 
This guarantee is not binding if for any reason you fail to have a satifactory group because of but not limited to the following:  shooter error, failure to allow for the effects of sunlight or darkness on bullet path, if the shooter has had anything to eat or drink in the previous 48 hours, failure to empty bladder withing 30 seconds prior to shooting, bad attitude, too long a distance to target (over 25 yards).  Guaranteed group size is predicated upon 1 shot groups.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 14:59
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

I will issue you an ironclad guarantee!
 
This guarantee is not binding if for any reason you fail to have a satifactory group because of but not limited to the following:  shooter error, failure to allow for the effects of sunlight or darkness on bullet path, if the shooter has had anything to eat or drink in the previous 48 hours, failure to empty bladder withing 30 seconds prior to shooting, bad attitude, too long a distance to target (over 25 yards).  Guaranteed group size is predicated upon 1 shot groups.


Laugh Above
nice bob!








-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 15:02
Good job Sakomato! I've been thinking about neck sizing my 308, and 300Win Mag, and this sounds interesting.
I have also read that a Lee collet crimp is necessary to hold the bullit in place. What say you Sako?


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 15:15
With the light grip the Lee Collet produces, the Lee Factory Crimp is a good companion die.  They are very inexpensive and fool proof.  The LFCD also uses collets that squeeze onto the loaded neck so they are self centering and do not create any additional runout.
 
I won't say the crimp is "necessary", that will depend upon your use.  IOW if they are your hunting loads that will go in and out of your mag througout the season, then I would crimp.  If you are a target shooter and will just go to the range and load one at a time the your bullet is not going to move anyway.  It will also depend upon how close the tip of the bullet is to the front of the magazine when loaded up.
 
In 3 separate tests of loaded-at-the-same-time / shot-at-the-same-time loads, the LFCD has increased my velocity an average of 10 fps and reduced groups size an average of 1/8".  To many here and elsewhere you say the work "crimp" and there is an instant negative reaction and I think this is due to the other types of crimp dies. 
 
My preferred set of dies and the ones I look for first with any new caliber are
 
Lee Collet Neck Sizer
Redding Body Die
RCBS Competition or Gold Medal Seater
Lee Factory Crimp Die
 
After learning to use them, you can stop worrying about concentricity and you will not want or need any other dies.
 
The only thing about the LFCD is that you will steadily shorten your case length.  That happens because the fired cases have that crimp burr on the end and when you chamfer that off it reduces case length.  After about 7 or 8 firings you will find that the LFCD will no longer work because your case is not long enough.  Now perhaps that happened to me with my 280AI because the brass was getting shorter for other reasons, I'm still investigating.  After 7 or 8 firings it is time for new brass anyway.
 
YMMV


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 15:23
i think crimping for the most part is personal preference, some cases you have no choice it Has to be done. i myself have never crimped anything.

still this is great info bob!


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 21:29
One other thing and I'll leave you guys alone.
 
The Lee Collet or the bushing type neck sizers work the neck brass 1/2 as much as a regular die with an expander ball.  That is because the regular die works the brass twice for each sizing, once to squeeze it down and once more when the expander ball expands it back out.
 
So you can shoot twice as many times before annealing.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: August/07/2009 at 22:07
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

I will issue you an ironclad guarantee!
 
This guarantee is not binding if for any reason you fail to have a satifactory group because of but not limited to the following:  shooter error, failure to allow for the effects of sunlight or darkness on bullet path, if the shooter has had anything to eat or drink in the previous 48 hours, failure to empty bladder withing 30 seconds prior to shooting, bad attitude, too long a distance to target (over 25 yards).  Guaranteed group size is predicated upon 1 shot groups.
 
 That reminds me of the Jiffy-Lube (?) commercial years ago where the poor shmuck goes to a redneck backwoods filling station to get his oil changed. When he asks about their guarantee, the proprieter states- 
 
 "Guarantee? .... Wellll,- if yo' not compleeetly satisfied- ....we'll take the oil right back outchyer car!"
 
...."But then I wouldn't have any oil in my car!"  Stare
 
 "Yeah,  but fortunately, we SELL oil here!" (Cackling laugh...)   Bucky


Posted By: sniper13
Date Posted: August/08/2009 at 14:23
Wow....Sako....That is great stuff, I will be shooting them tonight done with the neck sizer...right now I am getting consistant 1/2 MOA groups, with regular sizing. So we will see if it shrinks my groups anymore.....I will post results!

-------------
pulling a trigger is easy....hitting your mark is intelligence


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/09/2009 at 08:57
Bob, Thanks for all the info!  It was very well presented and nicely support by scientific anaylisis and observeation. 
Well done sir!   Thanks for sharing your research, knowledge. and passion!  Excellent


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 07:37
Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Bob, Thanks for all the info!  It was very well presented and nicely support by scientific anaylisis and observeation. 
Well done sir!   Thanks for sharing your research, knowledge. and passion!  Excellent
Love to help!
 
After all, who am I going to talk to about it?  My wife?  My girlfirend? 
 
Therapy for me, and I have actually thought of new ideas when explaining this stuff here!  Yippee


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Crosswire
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 08:42
ANYONE who tells you ANYTHING will cut groups in half is an idiot.  That's a strong statement but it's true.  Shocked  Whacko
 
A body die and neck die used in combo MAY help or it may NOT help.  There is absolutely no way to predict it because you can't possible know how well things will match.
 
The degree of help any die change makes depends on (1) how well your present dies are matched to your chamber (and that's a crap shoot) AND (2) how well the new body and sizer die matches your chamber.   If  your present dies are well matched to your chamber the ammo will also match.  If any "magic" die set does not match your chamber neither will the ammo.  Period.  The point being that all chambers and all dies are made to normal tolerances, plus or minus a specifiec amount. 
 
The ONLY way to know if anything different will help is to try it.  And rarely, if ever, will a die change be enough to cut groups in half; that's a load change result!  Die changes are mere tweeks for an already good load.   Big Grin


-------------
Sam Colt did more to make men equal than any politician ever did.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 09:27
Yes, that is a very strong statement.  I would agree that the absolute best groupings would be with everything matched to a very high degree.  That being said, it is foolish to believe you can not optimize your results and groups by paying attention to and fully understanding the details and science of reloading.  Remember Shot sizing is a major ingridient to our discussions here and all the advice Sakomato has given deals mostly with maintaining concentricity and repeatable holding strength.  The key word is repeatable,  so I say to you, If you have a perfectly matched everything and don't maintain concentricity and repeatability in holding pressure you too will be a long way from one hole groups.

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 17:33
Okay, I want to know who the idiot is!  Nowhere did I see anyone say the dies will cut the groups in half.
 
Where'd that come from?


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: ckk1106
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 18:02
Originally posted by sniper13 sniper13 wrote:

Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 18:52
Ah, so in the beginning, from outside our group the question was posed.  Yep that makes us idiots for sure, plain as mud! 

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 20:29
Sorry, I too thought he was calling us idiots, especially me, drives me crazy Loco!  Only my wife is allowed to do that.  Roll Eyes
 
I would think that it would be possible to cut your groups in half if you go from a poorly made full length die with an expander ball that created a lot of runout and gave too much bullet grip to a Lee Collet that made straight ammo.  It would be possible that your groups went from 1 1/2" to 3/4".
 
I guess I'm an idiot.  Stare


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 20:40
Okay Bob, I'll call you professor Idiot.  How thats?
 
He was calling us idiots,  Interesting thing is... that was the 1st time in this entire thread where something was just stated without any corroborating information, most scientific, ay?  I again commend you on your well reasoned and explained conclusions.


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 20:47
Maybe we need to start a new thread on.......................You could be an idiot if???????

You think you can shrink your groups in half by..........

You think that everyone who shoots a 700 is an............

All people who drive a Ford are.............

People who voted for Obama..........





Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/10/2009 at 21:18
Good idea Roy!
 
Unfortunately I probably wouldn't be smart enough to participate.Boo Hoo This
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that how closely your die matches your chamber determines how accurate your load will be. 


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/11/2009 at 09:03
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Maybe we need to start a new thread on.......................You could be an idiot if???????

You think you can shrink your groups in half by..........

You think that everyone who shoots a 700 is an............

All people who drive a Ford are.............

People who voted for Obama..........



 
Yep, thats a great idea.. that lists covers just about all of us, too! Bucky


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/11/2009 at 11:07

I came to this thread late (have been on the road a lot) but will respectfully disagree with a couple things sakomato posted:

No, you don't have to turn necks to use Redding bushing dies. To be most effective, however, the necks must be sorted for consistent neck thickness, both the thickness of the neck itself and the same thickness all around the neck. I haven't turned a neck in a long time, but do measure necks in every lot of brass I buy. Once all the necks in a certain batch of brass have been sorted for consistency, then I use the correct size bushing to size the neck to .002" below bullet diameter. I find this a LOT easier than neck turning.

Also, you do not need a gauge to partial size cases. All you need is a 7/8" diameter washer. This is placed between the die and the press when the die is screwed in. I have several washers designed for just this purpose, all 1/8" thick. This technique keeps the case in alignment much more precisely than with common neck-sizing dies. In some instances it also allows sizing without lubing. I almost never lube a .22 Horent case anymore, for instance, which saves a lot of time when loading 1000 rounds for prairie dog shooting.
 
The big point of all of this is bullet alignment. It doesn't matter which technique is used as long as the bullet starts straightly down the barrel.


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 16:56
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

No, you don't have to turn necks to use Redding bushing dies. To be most effective, however, the necks must be sorted for consistent neck thickness, both the thickness of the neck itself and the same thickness all around the neck. I haven't turned a neck in a long time, but do measure necks in every lot of brass I buy. Once all the necks in a certain batch of brass have been sorted for consistency, then I use the correct size bushing to size the neck to .002" below bullet diameter. I find this a LOT easier than neck turning.

Also, you do not need a gauge to partial size cases. All you need is a 7/8" diameter washer. This is placed between the die and the press when the die is screwed in. I have several washers designed for just this purpose, all 1/8" thick. This technique keeps the case in alignment much more precisely than with common neck-sizing dies. In some instances it also allows sizing without lubing. I almost never lube a .22 Horent case anymore, for instance, which saves a lot of time when loading 1000 rounds for prairie dog shooting.
 
 
Hey JB, yeah if you have great brass then you don't have to turn.  Seems like all my brass within the last couple of years has had variance in the .002" range though and I would lose a lot of brass if I culled them all.  Let me put it this way, IF you have brass that varies in neck thickness, then turning is necessary to get the best results from a bushing die when used without the expander.
 
Now the washer thing, is it placed like this?
 
if so, that would be for partial neck sizing and not partial full length sizing.  IOW it would size part of the neck but not contact the case body or shoulder.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 18:17
I hope John explains that one in a little more detail cause I'm not sure what he is talking about either. My guess is that he places the washer between the die and press frame so that the die does not bottom out on the shellholder. Not sure how that improves alignment. I also don't know if he is referring to using a FL die or a neck die with the washer.


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 18:30

Sakomato,

You must be getting different brass than I am. With brass from Federal, Remington and Winchester at least 80% and often 90% has necks that vary no more than .001" in thickness. With Norma and especially Lapua the percentage is much higher.

A 1/8" wash between die and press does not prevent the case itself from being partially sized, unless perhaps the case has a really sloping body like the .22-250's. Even in the .22 Hornet this technique sizes the body just in front of the rim. I know this because with partial sizing it's a lot easier to get the case into the chamber.

In most instances at least the rear portion of the case is slightly sized. (Of course how much depends on the individual die and chamber.) This is what keeps the case in alignment much better than with a standard neck-only die.


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 19:05
So if you are putting the washer at the top between the die (locknut) and the press then why couldn't you just adjust the die up on the threads and accomplish the same thing?  If you are putting the washer between the bottom of the die and the shell holder like in the pic then you are fooling the Lee Collet.
 
Does your method leave part of the neck unsized like this?
 
Question:  If the case is sized at the pressure ring, do you have a problem with more of a crush fit when that shoves your shoulder a little further forward?
 
It does seem like Lapua doesn't like the calibers I reload for cause they sure don't make cases for me except the 30-06.  Seems like I'm using a lot of Remington and have to turn anyway for tight necked chambers.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 19:37

I am not using Lee Collet dies for the most part. I am using full-length sizing dies, mostly from Redding and RCBS. And yes, it leaves the base of the neck unsized.

I am inserting the washer with dies that have already been adjusted to precisely FL size the cases. This is so I can FL size the cases when/if they ever grow a little too tight in the chamber. The washer gives me that option without having to re-set the die.
 
So far I haven't encountered many instances of the shoulder being moved forward. There are a few cases with really straight bodies where this can happen, such as the .243, but with a 1/8" thick washer there isn't a problem even then.
 
Mostly I use this technique with high-volume loading, partly because quite often I don't even have to lube the case. When loading for big game rifles I normally FL size.
 


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 20:45
Okay, so you originally set your die to where you would be Full Length sizing or Partial Full Length Sizing, then remove it, put the washer around the die at the top and then tighten it down to where the lock nut is tight against the washer.  An 1/8" spacer.  You could do this by just die adjustment but this way you don't lose your setting for FLR or PFLR.
 
Did you have special washers made that were completely consistant so you don't cant your die?
 
I suspect that the amount you would size the pressure ring and push the shoulder would be dependent upon the interior dimensions of your chamber and die.  A very generous chamber would allow the brass to expand more and a die with minimum interior dimensions would size the lower case more than the other way around.


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 20:50

I got the washers from somewhere, years ago, maybe Redding or Sinclair. They are precise.

Yeah, as I mentioned somewhere above a lot depends on how your chamber matches up with the particular die. Also the brass. I have a bunch of .300 H&H Winchester brass that matches up so perfectly with my chamber and RCBS die that there's no need to use the expander ball. I simply use a Lee Decapping die to punch out the primer and then run the case into the die. It comes out perfectly straight, of course.



Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 21:53

That's another way to make really straight ammo.  Just take the expander out of your FL or NS die and size a case.  Measure the OD of the neck to see the dimensions of your die.  Then it gets a little complicated because you have to turn the brass to reduce the bullet grip.

Say if you have a 30-06 and your FL die sizes the outside of the case to .330".  If you want .002" bullet grip then you want your loaded OD to be .332".  Just subtract that .332" from the width of the bullet .308" and you get .024".  If you neck turn your brass to .012" then you can size without the expander.  No lube in the neck and straight ammo cause dies are usually concentric with the die body.
 
Sounds like you lucked into a situation where the die neck diameter on your die works out just right for your brass.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 22:36
sakomato, would using one of these help as well?

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/sizebuttons.html - Redding


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/12/2009 at 23:08
Hey Roy
 
Don't know.  Signed off of expander balls a long time ago.  Suppose some expanders stink less than others!  Farter


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: sniper13
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 10:18
Get Your Popcorn Ready

-------------
pulling a trigger is easy....hitting your mark is intelligence


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 10:26
  Ya better put down the popcorn and get a pen and paper.  There may be a quiz at the end!

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"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 10:30
Thats the nice thing about a forum....let the brainiacs duke it out.  Then when the dust settles we all benefit!  Light It Up

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: BillyWayne
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 11:27
Yes.  I like these little battles....more like rock-em-sock-em robot friendly types instead of the Tyson-Holyfield bite-your-ear-offs.  I have enjoyed this thread.


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John 11:35
The're taking the hobbits to Isengard!!


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 11:38
Yep it ALLLLL good!  Cool

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 13:08
sakomato, there is another trick that I read about in an article by John Barsness where you loosen the decapping pin in the die allowing it to "float" so to speak that supposedly helps strengthen out resizing.


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 13:09

Sakotmato,

Actually I still use expander ball dies a lot, I just figured out how to dink with them until they make straight cases.

I experimented with turning necks so I didn't have to use the ball, but found in a lot of instances the necks had to be turned too thin for consistent bullet pull. I also hate turning necks (or anything else that takes quite a bit of time) so instead learned to fix expander-ball dies--if they need fixing. I'd guess at least 3/4 of the standard FL dies I've gotten from Redding over the past few years are good to go right out of the box, producing cases with necks concentric within .001". With RCBS the percentage is lower, but not by much.
 
In the relatively few few instances where the dies need to be fixed, I've found that tweaking the expander ball so that it's in-line with the decapping rod, plus polishing the ball, will generally result in straight cases.


Posted By: sniper13
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 17:26
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

  Ya better put down the popcorn and get a pen and paper.  There may be a quiz at the end!
Believe me I am, ol' Sakomatois pretty slick, its nice to see someone that actually knows what hes talkin bout and has proved it with time testing on the range rather than just talkin....

-------------
pulling a trigger is easy....hitting your mark is intelligence


Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 17:59
Yeah, sakomato has most of this stuff down to a science but when he starts talking about indexing brass to specific chambers, then I'll have to listen more closely...................................grin


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 18:54
You guys are too kind.  I just hope that someday I know as much as JB.
 
There is a guy that posts elsewhere that is an "expander ball expert", posts as kraky.  Here's some things he has to say about it
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it...a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
WOODS-- Different dies have different ways of locking the expander stem. I try to put it in place with the decapping pin showing outside the die body and snug it a little but not all the way. Then I put a piece of concentric brass in the shellholder and raise the ram so the case mouth centers it (Yes this has to be a resized piece of brass not something that was fired and taken out of a gun) This is where it gets tough to do it yourself....on my hornady dies I kind of brace the handle with my knee while holding the top of the die with a wrench in one hand while tightening the spindle with a deep socket in the other. The idea is get the expander a little snug but then make the final tightening while holding it centered with a piece of concentric brass. I may lose creditability with some people but I love hornady dies. I may have to do this procedure a few times but when I'm done I can turn out .001" runnout brass over and over again with a hornady sizer. I credit hornadies eliptical expander as being the best in the business. They go through the case neck like butter.
It's really pretty simple--if you take the expander out of a die and size some brass and they come out without runnout you know your die body is perfect. Now it's a matter of getting the expander stem as perfectly in the middle of the die as possible so it doesn't pull the case off center when pulling the brass over the expander ball. It might take an hour of tuning with many brands of dies but sooner or later you will get it in the middle and YOU WILL MAKE REALLY REALLY GOOD BRASS. Now we have to argue that it really makes a difference or not. I used to think it was really important---I'm not sure any factory hunting rifle can tell the difference between .001" and say .004" runnout. BUT, I do enjoy getting things as good as possible and once my die is set.....it's set for a long long time.
I've read posts by people that say just take out the expander but using the bullet as an expander during seating doesn't seem right to me. I simply can't believe alot of neck tension and perhaps inconsistant tension is good at all. There are other people out there that deprime with a universal die, size without an expander, and then use something like a lyman M-die to open the case mouth back to dimension. I belive that system will work well but once again.....a properly tuned die will do it all one NORMAL operation.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 18:58
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Yeah, sakomato has most of this stuff down to a science but when he starts talking about indexing brass to specific chambers, then I'll have to listen more closely...................................grin
 
Hey, I resemble that remark!!  Whacker


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/13/2009 at 21:22
I saw "kraky's" post, which was very interesting.
 
In handloading (as in most shooting, or anything else) there are almost always several ways to get to the same place. The place here is producing accurate ammunition, and it appears that all of us agree that concentric necks and bullet seating are the primary ingredient.
 
I would be interested to hear opinions on the other aspects of case uniforming. My own experience is that they're very minor factors compared to bullet alignment, and perhaps even irrelevant in most rifles. The obvious (but not necessary) exception would be dedicated benchrest rifles, but I am always interested in other opinions.


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 05:57
Great input from both John and Bob, it is very much appreciated!  Also, thanks for posting Kraky .02.  Hadn't really even thought of that aspect of things, but makes good sense to tune / optimze your dies that way.
 
Cudoes to all 3 of you!  This turned into an excellent and very educational thread!
 
Have a great weekend, gentlemen!


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: ckk1106
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 10:49
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

sakomato, there is another trick that I read about in an article by John Barsness where you loosen the decapping pin in the die allowing it to "float" so to speak that supposedly helps strengthen out resizing.

Does this work?  This would be a non complicated way of reducing run out if it works.  I try to keep it as simple as possible.Big Smile


Posted By: Crosswire
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 10:50
"He was calling us idiots,  Interesting thing is... that was the 1st time in this entire thread where something was just stated without any corroborating information, most scientific, ay? "
 
Goodness.  I just came back to see how things are  progressing.   Seems some have their panties in a wad over something about "idiot" I did NOT say.    Loco
 
The point was, clearly, that the man who told our poster that he could cut groups in "half" by doing ANYTHING is an idiot.  Prior to that it seemed most of you recognised that better accuracy is that simple OR predictible.   Wink    Anyone who injected himself into that position has done so on his own, I didn't say it or think it.
 
Given the unresponded to comment, "someone out of our group" suggests some consider this a private forum, only "insiders" need to post?  Perhaps you should tell the site owners to block those outside the "inside group"!    Yippee


-------------
Sam Colt did more to make men equal than any politician ever did.


Posted By: Crosswire
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 10:53
"Ah, so in the beginning, from outside our group the question was posed.  Yep that makes us idiots for sure, plain as mud!"
 
 
Perhaps it would be more mature to wait until you are hit before whineing?  


-------------
Sam Colt did more to make men equal than any politician ever did.


Posted By: ckk1106
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 11:01
Originally posted by Crosswire Crosswire wrote:

"He was calling us idiots,  Interesting thing is... that was the 1st time in this entire thread where something was just stated without any corroborating information, most scientific, ay? "
 
Goodness.  I just came back to see how things are  progressing.   Seems some have their panties in a wad over something about "idiot" I did NOT say.    Loco
 
The point was, clearly, that the man who told our poster that he could cut groups in "half" by doing ANYTHING is an idiot.  Prior to that it seemed most of you recognised that better accuracy is that simple OR predictible.   Wink    Anyone who injected himself into that position has done so on his own, I didn't say it or think it.
 
Given the unresponded to comment, "someone out of our group" suggests some consider this a private forum, only "insiders" need to post?  Perhaps you should tell the site owners to block those outside the "inside group"!    Yippee

I don't think Sako meant to suggest that he "considers this a private forum" only for "insiders".  I think he was talking about someone outiside of the people posting responses here.  Anyways, he apologized.  What's the big deal? 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 11:24
Originally posted by Crosswire Crosswire wrote:

"He was calling us idiots,  Interesting thing is... that was the 1st time in this entire thread where something was just stated without any corroborating information, most scientific, ay? "
 
Goodness.  I just came back to see how things are  progressing.   Seems some have their panties in a wad over something about "idiot" I did NOT say.    Loco
 
The point was, clearly, that the man who told our poster that he could cut groups in "half" by doing ANYTHING is an idiot.  Prior to that it seemed most of you recognised that better accuracy is that simple OR predictible.   Wink    Anyone who injected himself into that position has done so on his own, I didn't say it or think it.
 
Given the unresponded to comment, "someone out of our group" suggests some consider this a private forum, only "insiders" need to post?  Perhaps you should tell the site owners to block those outside the "inside group"!    Yippee


so are you going to add anything helpful to this thread, or just insult people?


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 12:08
Whacko WTF!...It is amazing how some people simply can't see themselves for what they are!
 
This entire thread was professionally and scientifically presented.  It is obvious that a lot of time and thought went into everything discussed here EXCEPT for the statements posted by Crosswire.  All of which are aggressively worded opinion presented in an advesarial manor.  And he wonders at our reaction.  I have to say, I really admire his social skill set. Loco


-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Roy Finn
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 13:35
Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:



Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

sakomato, there is another trick that I read about in an article by John Barsness where you loosen the decapping pin in the die allowing it to "float" so to speak that supposedly helps strengthen out resizing.

Does this work?  This would be a non complicated way of reducing run out if it works.  I try to keep it as simple as possible.Big Smile



Probably better that John Barsness comments on this as I got the tip from either an article he wrote or from a post on a different forum. I don't remember which.


Posted By: Crosswire
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 16:44
Sniper13 - "Hey guys I have a friend that is real good with reloading an he told me to get a body sizing only die and a neck sizing die if I wanted improved accuracy and to cut my groups in 1/2. Is this possible and why?"
 
budperm - "This entire thread was professionally and scientifically presented.  It is obvious that a lot of time and thought went into everything discussed here EXCEPT for the statements posted by Crosswire.
 
My post was directed to the OP, Sniper13. 
 
I, like an amature I suppose, spoke to him, it appears some of you presume to be to busy to do that.  You professionals had pirated his topic and run into a professonal enclave, virtually ignoring what Sniper had asked.  
 
Therefore I feel no need to make apologies to the self important who think everything said here MUST be spoken to them; it is not, was not   Grow up and cool it.
 


-------------
Sam Colt did more to make men equal than any politician ever did.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 17:09
i for one really feel like a lot of good info was presented here. sako, jb and roy all have plenty of knowledge. as far as im concerned they more than answered the op's questions.

now who died and put you in charge??? your the one who needs to chill.


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

sakomato, there is another trick that I read about in an article by John Barsness where you loosen the decapping pin in the die allowing it to "float" so to speak that supposedly helps strengthen out resizing.

Does this work?  This would be a non complicated way of reducing run out if it works.  I try to keep it as simple as possible.Big Smile
 
Here's a guy that uses an o-ring  to sorta free float the expander stem
 
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/caseprep.html - http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/caseprep.html
 
 
About 4 or 5 years ago this came up and 3 of us did an independent test using
  • sizing with expander and no modification
  • sizing with expander and rubber washer
  • sizing with Redding Bushing die no neck turning
  • sizing with Lee Collet Neck Sizer
It has been awhile but all 3 of came to the same conclusion that the Lee Collet had much less runout, second was the expander with a rubber washer, then the expander with no modification and the Redding Bushing die did terribly.  Now this was before I started neck turning and I can say now that the Redding Bushing die can produce low runout loads.  I will try to see if I can find the link or the information but it has been awhile.
 
YMMV


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Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 17:42
Originally posted by sniper13 sniper13 wrote:

Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

  Ya better put down the popcorn and get a pen and paper.  There may be a quiz at the end!
Believe me I am, ol' Sakomatois pretty slick, its nice to see someone that actually knows what hes talkin bout and has proved it with time testing on the range rather than just talkin....
 Hey Cw,
     How come what's going on here doesn't seem to be bothering sniper13?  You know how it is Cw.  When you move into a new neighborhood you gotta prove yourself.  Dish it out and take it to.  It's obvious your not new to reloading and you've got info to share so share it.  But an attitude here gets no one anywhere, quick. The OT forum is made up of the easiest to get along with guys on any forum out there. Been there and done that! The water's went under the bridge so let it go. It's up to you,bro. 


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 20:49
  Howdy  Hippie 

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: Crosswire
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 21:18
" You know how it is C(ross)w(ire).  When you move into a new neighborhood you gotta prove yourself."  
 
Actually, I find it amusing that anyone would feel a site "belongs" to them simply by virture of a  high post count, or that "newbies" should sit quitely by until the owners feel it's okay for us to speak.
 
It is, and was, clear to any rational reader that I first spoke to those who had told Sniper13 he could cut groups "in half"  by simply using a new set of tools.  That's not so, and any reasonably competent handloader knows it.  I see nothing in the long  "professional" disertations suggesting otherwise.  Therefore it seems clear that anyone taking offense to my comment had to be looking for it. 
 
Suggesting I 'apoligise" for something I did not say, did not mean, is/was simply a childish attempt to put me, the new guy, in my place and be silent when the important foks are holding court.   But take it?  It is to laugh, not frown, at least on my end! 
 
So, why didn't Sniiper inject?   Perhaps he was reluctant to interrupt the pros?
 
 
"Dish it out and take it to."
 
I'm mature enough to "take it" and accept it too if/when I'm wrong.  But perhaps this confirms that I won't silently take immature, ego driven personal attacks for not kow-towing to the old hands.  That's foolish and I didn't do that even when I was young!  Not that any of this means a thing to any of us, right?
 
Hope everyone has a great week-end, especially Sniper!   
 
I'm sure I will!   ;)


-------------
Sam Colt did more to make men equal than any politician ever did.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 21:54
Originally posted by Crosswire Crosswire wrote:

" You know how it is C(ross)w(ire).  When you move into a new neighborhood you gotta prove yourself."  
 
Actually, I find it amusing that anyone would feel a site "belongs" to them simply by virture of a  high post count, or that "newbies" should sit quitely by until the owners feel it's okay for us to speak.
 
It is, and was, clear to any rational reader that I first spoke to those who had told Sniper13 he could cut groups "in half"  by simply using a new set of tools.  That's not so, and any reasonably competent handloader knows it.  I see nothing in the long  "professional" disertations suggesting otherwise.  Therefore it seems clear that anyone taking offense to my comment had to be looking for it. 
 
Suggesting I 'apoligise" for something I did not say, did not mean, is/was simply a childish attempt to put me, the new guy, in my place and be silent when the important foks are holding court.   But take it?  It is to laugh, not frown, at least on my end! 
 
So, why didn't Sniiper inject?   Perhaps he was reluctant to interrupt the pros?
 
 
"Dish it out and take it to."
 
I'm mature enough to "take it" and accept it too if/when I'm wrong.  But perhaps this confirms that I won't silently take immature, ego driven personal attacks for not kow-towing to the old hands.  That's foolish and I didn't do that even when I was young!  Not that any of this means a thing to any of us, right?
 
Hope everyone has a great week-end, especially Sniper!   
 
I'm sure I will!   ;)

see thats where you are wrong, the site does belong to us.if you dont believe that ask the man in charge. he will tell you straight up that this place is ours. this isnt snipers hide or 24hr campfire, we dont put up with stuff like that here. we are civil, read the rules abide by them or leave, you follow??
i think plenty of people here have already proved that different techniques  can shave a lot of real estate off of groups. i dont see how you think thats wrong.


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: August/14/2009 at 22:03
Is this gentleman related to Squeeze?   Let  it go Pyro..your talking to a deaf ear.

-------------
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: August/15/2009 at 18:40

ckk1106,

Yes, sometimes (and I emphasize the sometimes) loosening the decapper/expander assembly can help reduce the tendency of the expander ball to pull the neck out of alignment with the body of the case. The O-ring method of course does basically the same thing.

However, in my experiments I have also found that pulling the neck over the expander ball sometimes isn't so good even if the expander is loose. One technique that works just about every time is to instead PUSH the expander ball into the neck, as a separate step after the case is sized. This almost always results in straighter necks, I assume because the inside of the shell-holder tends to keep the case square as it's being pushed.

Obviously, this also requires a separate de-capping operation.


Posted By: ckk1106
Date Posted: August/15/2009 at 22:45
Thanks, John.  I think I'll try the second method you've listed there, and decap first, then resize, and then replace the expander ball and run the ball through the mouth of the case. Is that how it's done?   I'm gonna have to buy a universal decapping die first, though.  Thanks again.  


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: August/16/2009 at 08:25
  I've done away with expander/decap assemblies all together. I use a bare sizing die after a universal decapper and the expand the necks with Lyman 'M' dies.

-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: sakomato
Date Posted: August/16/2009 at 10:17
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

  I've done away with expander/decap assemblies all together. I use a bare sizing die after a universal decapper and the expand the necks with Lyman 'M' dies.
 
 
Hey Earl
 
How does the M die work?  Does it use an expander button or an expanding mandrel?  I can't find much info on them.


-------------
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians


Posted By: 300S&W
Date Posted: August/16/2009 at 11:19
   Hey Bob,
   This guy explains it pretty good:
    http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm - http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm
 
   Although he doesn't show it listed the 'M' die can be had in 9.3 caliber.


-------------
"I ain't got time to bleed!"


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/16/2009 at 11:30
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

  I've done away with expander/decap assemblies all together. I use a bare sizing die after a universal decapper...
 
Me too. Expander balls are of The Debil!!  Devil
They contribute to runout. I use a K&M Expand Iron Tool for my necks.
   http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/expanded-iron-tool/expand-iron_complete.html - http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/expanded-iron-tool/expand-iron_complete.html



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