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17 hmr accuracy problems

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rimfire / Airgun
Forum Description: Rimfire and airgun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=19384
Printed Date: September/22/2019 at 02:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 17 hmr accuracy problems
Posted By: stork23raz
Subject: 17 hmr accuracy problems
Date Posted: September/21/2009 at 18:56
I have a Savage 93R17btvs rifle, 17hmr. It will shoot quarter in groups up to about 75 yards. I would expect at least  a 1in group or less an 100 yards. Although some where past 75 yards it goes haywire.  I am lucky to get  4 in group at 100 yards. Anyone got any ideas on what is going wrong here?



Replies:
Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: September/21/2009 at 21:50

 That is kind of strange for accuracy to dive off the cliff so radically over such a short distance.

 Sorry- I can't really offer any suggestions.
 
It's not like you have a huge selection of different ammo to compare brands, etc. either. 


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 16:06
If this is a new rifle I would consider contacting Savage. That sounds like a barrel problem to me. Try running a jag thru the barrel and check for any rough spots. Also check for any damage to the crown. By looking at the target can you tell if the bullet is tumbling? Every .17 HMR I have shot has been able to shoot under 1/2 inch at 100 Yds.
Good Luck     Welcome to the OT.


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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 16:50
I will prob have to end up calling them on one of my days off. The rifle has prob had less than 100 rounds thu it. I had a friend that had a marlin 17 and it was capable of shooting sub 1" groups at 100yards. Hopefully I will figure it out or get it fixed soon. Thanks 


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 17:16
that sounds ammo related 100 percent

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"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 17:24
sadly due to the ammo craziness. I have only been able to  get my hands on a couple boxes of hornady 17grain vmax. The only thing the gun has ate.  So it very well could be ammo related. Its just so hard to get my hands on some ammo. Every place is sold out constantly.  I been looking to get some cci and federal ect.


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 17:25
What ammo are you using? I use the remington and hornady ammo. Also what scope are you using. I have the same rifle and it shots 1/4 groups with no problem.

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 17:30
I would make contact with their customer service and explain how you are very upset about the performance of the ammunition and how great it has shot some others, say Winchester since its reported CCI makes all the 17 hmr ammo for Hornady, Remington, Federal, etc.
 
They will probably compensate you some how and send out a free window sticker.
 
Definitely though rifle manufacturer's have more consistency than any box of rimfire ammunition...chances of them putting your rifle out there with the wrong twist is 1 in a million and if its accurate at 75 yards it has to be the ammo for it to not be accurate at 100 yards.
 
Hornady might even tell you they have had bad reports on that lot # you are using and you won't have to explain much.
 


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"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 17:49
savage 93R17BTVS w/ leupold prm rings, burris 4.5-14x32mm timberline scope with ballistic plex. shooting off a sandbag. hornady 17grain vmax ammo.


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 18:18
Have you checked the scope for a paralax problem? Is this a new set-up (scope and gun)?

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 18:46
Both are new. It has AO and I really dont think its a parallax problem 


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:09
Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

Both are new. It has AO and I really dont think its a parallax problem 
You do know how to check for paralax right? Not trying to insult you or anything like that. The reason  I say check for paralax is the further the target the harder it is to hold a group.

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:09
CI does make all ammo for the .17 HMR. The only difference would be different lots, but I have gotten very good 100-yard accuracy with the .17.
 
One possibility is that the scope's AO is slightly loose when set at 100 yards. Have you tried a different scope?


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:16
well the image very bright clear crisp. I can bob my head around without seeing the crosshairs move. Thats all I know. Parallax, I dont know much about I just understand that it is some type of optical illusion/distortion at a specific distance. And without proper correction it can really screw up a shot.  No I havent tried different scopes. I have shot a few shots beyond 100 yards it did the same thing. Not too far beyond.. 110-115. So how would i check to make sure the parallax is correct?


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:20
Put the rifle on the sand bags and point it at your target, try and put the cross hairs or whatever you have on something small. Now without touching you gun or leaning on your table look threw the scope and move your head around. Cross hairs sould stay if there is no sign of paralax. You want find it buy holding the rifle. Just bag it and look threw the scope.

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:35
By the way. What part of Tennessee do you live in. I'm in Martin, not to far from Jackson Tn.

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:45
Scott county. i live about 60 miles or so north of knoxville. 


Posted By: hawkman
Date Posted: October/05/2009 at 19:50
Originally posted by stork23raz stork23raz wrote:

Scott county. i live about 60 miles or so north of knoxville. 
So you live on one side and me on the other.Shocked

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I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


Posted By: originalbigbuck
Date Posted: October/14/2009 at 21:04
I've got the same gun. It drifts after just 10 rounds at just 45 yards. It's not the scope. The issue lies within the barrel as this is what I was told by a gunsmith. He says that the high speed and soft copper of this bullet lays down a layer of copper within the rifling grooves after just 10 shots. You have to clean the barrel with some of the foam cleaner that takes out copper and lead deposits from the rifling grooves. I did use the foam cleaner on the barrel but didn't have a jag small enough to push through the tiny bore so I just ran some patches through it for now to clean out the foam and ran a patch of oil through it because some of these foam cleaners have water in them. I  haven't shot it yet as I'm going to take back the cleaning kit this gunsmith sold me that contains a .17 cal rod but no jag that fits it. Out of the 20 rounds I shot out of the gun, 2 of the cases had a vertical split across the shoulder and the gunsmith told me that it could be caused by the excessive copper deposits laid out by this bullet in the barrel.

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GOD BLESS


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/14/2009 at 21:47
Well if its that simple. It sucks that it does that but it means that it could be easily corrected. Sounds like you cant do alot of bench shooting, but still you can at least do some hunting with it. I will try that and see. That could be very well the answer I am looking for. I dunno when I will get to take it out and shoot it again. The weather here has just been miserable as of late. I hope its that simple. Means the gun isnt worthless. Good luck, hope your 17 will work fine and shoot excellent. 


Posted By: budperm
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 07:57
I sure would like to hear an update on this!

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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson





Posted By: hotshot
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 14:46
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

CI does make all ammo for the .17 HMR. The only difference would be different lots, but I have gotten very good 100-yard accuracy with the .17.
 
One possibility is that the scope's AO is slightly loose when set at 100 yards. Have you tried a different scope?
 
Ive heard this before, however find it interesting.  My Marlin 17 seems to like the 17grn CCI hollow points slightly better than the balistic tips (also 17grn)  I was given a box of federal 17grn ballistic tips by a friend, and my gun shoots about 2" higher with the federal than the CCI Loco


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: October/18/2009 at 22:15
Is this rifle bedded?
 
How many rounds have been fired through it?  It's difficult to believe your barrel becomes coppor fouled after 10 shots. 
 
How does the crown look?  Make sure you clean from the breech and use a bore guide.
 
I have two heavy barrel Savages (one like yours and one with a heavy barrel with a standard/typical laminate stock).  Both shoot godd but one of them definitly needed some work to get it to shoot.
 
Regarding ammo, both of mine prefer Federal TNT, followed by CCI TNT and then Hornady VMAX (all 17 grains).  The Federal and CCI with the plastic tips didn't do to good.
 
HTH,


Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 06:28

There is not parallax problem. The first shoot always goes where its intended which makes me think of fouling or ammo.

The rifle has less than 100 rounds thru it.  I have done nothing to the rifle but buy it, put rings and scope.

I maintain and clean my firearms very well. The crown looks fine. I have been shooting the 17grain hornday vmax.

One of my friends knows a gunsmith, he told him my problem and said the same as Originalbigbuck. He said hes known of it and it tends to be a fouling problem with copper laying in the groves and essentailly making the bore smooth. The gunsmith said you have to clean after 10 shots. Although with my rifle you only really get 1-2 accurate shots after that they just drift away.
I prob wont be able to get any ammo for it right now. I gotta tighten my belt to get money saved up for xmas.


Posted By: danjojoUSMC
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 14:47
Trade in for a .204 and just reload to keep prices close to the 17 Big Smile 
 
Seriously though, you never hear anything but very positive feedback on the 204, only thing I would get under a .243
 


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"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be"



"Every part of life comes into focus just as you are about to pull the trigger."


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 20:55
hotshot,
 
What you are seeing is simply the differences between different lots of ammo--plsu the difference between hollow-points and plastic-tips. This is common with ALL kinds of rimfire ammo, believe me.
 
20 years ago I tried some of the latest "hyper-velocity" .22 ammo in one of my rifles and was getting super accuracy. Went back the next year and bought the same brand and it wouldn't shoot half as well as the previous stuff. Since then if I find a really good batch of rimfire I buy a big bunch--and quickly, before the next lot comes out.


Posted By: John Barsness
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 21:02
stork,
 
Fouling is not going to cause the rifle to shot tiny groups at 75 yards and then scatter them at 100.
 
.17 HMR's do need to be cleaned like centerfire rifles, and different barrels do vary in how much fouling they accumulate. But the symptoms you describe do not sound like a fouling problem.
 
.17 HMR's are affected by wind even more than most cartridges--and the effect will be more at longer ranges. If the wind came up just a little between your shooting at 75 and 100 yards that would also be a factor.


Posted By: tjtjwdad
Date Posted: October/19/2009 at 23:22

If you can, try different brands of ammo.  As John Barsness pointed out, the curse of the rim fire's is you have to try out different ammo and when you find one that works, by as much of that lot as you can.

Also, as John pointed out, while the 17 HMR is a very zippy round, it is very susceptable to wind, even just a little.

Regarding the fouling, just shoot it some, most firearms after several rounds down the tube start to shoot better.  If your haveing trouble getting the copper out, use some strong cleaners like Sweets 7.62 and some JB bore past.  Between those two, the copper is usually removed.

As far as a 204 Ruger, thats a nice round too. 



Posted By: stork23raz
Date Posted: January/28/2010 at 14:29

I think figured out what is was. It was fouling, HORRIBLE fouling. Thats why the first shot was always dead on. I was using some hornady vmax. It was the only thing any store had in stock for about 6 months. I got some CCI , they always burn cleaner. I picked up a box of 17gr tnt. I went to the range fire about 50 rounds thru it. It was still cleaner than firing 3 or 4 of the Hornady.  I ordered some CCIvmax and gamepoints, I expect them to group better.  I also decied since the gun is shooting one inch groups w/ the tnt, and my 22 had a horrible cheap scope on it. Why not upgrade. So I moved the Burris Timberline 4.5-14x32 to my Savage 22. Picked myself up and Nikon 6-18x40mm with sidefocus and slaped it on my 17. Hopefully I will get to go zero them soon. I really hope that the CCI vmax or game poitns will bring my groups down some. Updates will follow



Posted By: medic52
Date Posted: January/30/2010 at 19:50
Nice gun and scope it should serve you well, but I too have to say that fouling is not the issue. I have two of the HMR's andHAVE never had an issue with the Hornady ammo.....I think your upgrade of scope will help alot.....

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G.K. Chesterton



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