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why you can't get one scope for both prairie dogs

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=27522
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Topic: why you can't get one scope for both prairie dogs
Posted By: cruft
Subject: why you can't get one scope for both prairie dogs
Date Posted: February/04/2011 at 20:07
As of today, with today's magnification ranges on scopes, it is a circle that can't be squared.  PDs are usually small and far away while coyotes are large, fast and may be extremely close.  PDs allow much time for set up while coyotes will come as a surprise.  Many use shotguns for coyotes.  With PDs scope magnification usually tops out at around 14x due to mirage.  Coyotes need little magnification, both eyes open and the hunting experience between the two are so vastly different as to lead one to wonder if the inital question has been throught thru.  IMHO while the calibre can be used for both PDs and coyotes the rifle and the scope should be dedicated.  Once the 1.5-14x scope comes on the market then it's time to jump on that wagon.  Of course that still leaves the rifle.  How fast can you bring the rifle to bear on the 15 yard coyote with a 26-30" barrel.  This is where glass quality enters as the improvement in resolution & contrast will allow seamingly impossible ranges at lower magnifications.  So welcome to the world of the Uber Scopes.  Never, ever look thru them or start saving.Soap Box



Replies:
Posted By: helo18
Date Posted: February/04/2011 at 20:10
Interesting.  I use a 3-12 on a 26" barrel on my 22-250 and haven't have any problems hunting whether it is pds or a yote at 15 yards.

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To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

GEORGE WASHINGTON


Posted By: 03mossy
Date Posted: February/04/2011 at 20:37
I have been mauling over the same problem for a while. I just ordered a 6.5-20x40 for my 22-250. My thinking was this... I will be pulling the trigger on that gun probley 1500 times this year, 1000 at PD's, 495 at targets and other range fun, and 5 times on yotes. So yeah I handicapped myself for those 5 shots a year but the rest of the time I will enjoy the extra magnification.


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 11:04
Cruft, here are a few that are fairly close to the mag range your looking at

http://swfa.com/images/bushnell_mildot_popup.jpg">Mil-Dot http://swfa.com/Bushnell-25-16x42-Elite-6500-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13139.aspx - Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite 6500 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - 652164T
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • Tactical Model
  • Rainguard
  • Free Sun Shade w/ Purchase
  • Discontinued closeout price
$549.95

This one is being closed out.  Good low end and top end is more than enough.  Different configurations available too.

What about the Minox?

http://swfa.com/images/minox_bdc_popup.jpg"> http://swfa.com/Minox-3-15x42-ZA5-Riflescope-P46139.aspx - Minox 3-15x42 ZA5 Riflescope
Stock # - 66021
  • Matte
  • BDC
  • 1"
$528.95

It is not as low as the 6500 Bushnell or down to 1.5x but if a yote pops out at 15 yds will appear like it is at 5 which isn't much of a difference.

Probably the best in that range if $$ was no object would be the Swaro or Mark scopes, but then you are out of my yard.


http://swfa.com/Swarovski-25-15x44-Z6-30mm-Riflescope-P48354.aspx - Swarovski 2.5-15x44 Z6 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59419
  • Matte
  • BRH
  • 30mm
$2,198.95
 or

http://swfa.com/images/swarovski_bri_popup.jpg">Illuminated Ballistic Reticle http://swfa.com/Swarovski-25-15x44-Z6i-30mm-Riflescope-P12565.aspx - Swarovski 2.5-15x44 Z6i 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59437
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Ballistic Reticle
  • 30mm
$2,588.95


Is it easy to swing a 24" -26" heavy barreled varmint rig?  It isn't as easy as swinging a shotgun, but it can be done.  I have had p-dogs pop up 6-8' from me.  Didn't use my rifle, but the .22 pistol worked great.


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If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 11:18
I'm with SD Dog; you definitely can have one scope for both.  The ones he recommends are good choices.

Or, any 2.5-10X or 3-12X or 4-14X/16X with a multi-point reticle will work very well. 

I use all of the above magnification ranges for both PD's and coyotes with no problems.  I prefer having illumination as well for low light and night predator hunting, but that isn't an absolute necessity, depending on the type of coyote hunting you do.  It certainly isn't needed for PD shooting, which is a daytime activity. 

I just wouldn't go over about 4X on the low end, and there's no need to go above 16X on the high end.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: HOLLOWPOINT
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 11:32

http://www.deon.co.jp/march/2.5x-25x42_hunting.htm - http://www.deon.co.jp/march/2.5x-25x42_hunting.htm

Cool


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Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good. Thomas Paine


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 11:40
Yeah, that one HP.

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If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: neilbilly
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 11:45
Why not just get 2 different gun and scope combos for 2 very different types of hunting? 

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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.


Posted By: tman1965
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 12:36
Originally posted by neilbilly neilbilly wrote:

Why not just get 2 different gun and scope combos for 2 very different types of hunting? 
Ditto


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 13:04
You absolutely can/could if you wanted to.  Personally, I don't.  I like using the same setup so I know near or far where I'm at.  Having a scope that offers both low and high magnification is one great asset.

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If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: cruft
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 17:02
This canard about have one scope to do two vary different tasks just doesn't hold up.  First do you actually know any semi-serious gunman who has ONLY one rifle?  Second would your wife clean the house if she was Scarlet Johansen?  We have "the lust of the eyes" being men and all.  As for me one guy here has a Dakota Model 10 with case coloring as a signature.  This should be banned from the site as "porn".  And please stop sending links to Swarovski scopes as why torture a brother?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 17:11
If you have money to spend I can comfortably recommend a couple of March scopes I tested last year: 2.5-25x42 with SFP reticle and 3-24x42 with FFP reticle.

In the sub-$1K range, Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 is a nice and versatile option as are a few 3-15x50 scopes like the Minox ZA5 and Weaver Ultimate Slam.

Later in the year I expect Sightron to bring some scope onto the market that have 7x erectors.  They had 1-7x24 at SHOT and I suspect they will bring out more configurations based ont he same erector system.

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: cruft
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 17:40
Ilya,  IOR seems to have some scopes coming to market allowing dual use having both the glass (Schott), wide magnification range,  price points and the reticles.  My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews.  Before you jump on me you would be less than human if you could avoid such a thing.  Once dependent on product or access this is unavoidable unless you're very wealthy and altruistic.  I'm not your critic and look expectantly for your name.  This should be a fabulous year for product all that remains are enough shooters with jobs to fill the order books. 


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 17:55
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

Ilya,  IOR seems to have some scopes coming to market allowing dual use having both the glass (Schott), wide magnification range,  price points and the reticles.  My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews.  Before you jump on me you would be less than human if you could avoid such a thing.  Once dependent on product or access this is unavoidable unless you're very wealthy and altruistic.  I'm not your critic and look expectantly for your name.  This should be a fabulous year for product all that remains are enough shooters with jobs to fill the order books. 

I am not going to jump on you.  It is really quite simple: I do the best I can and if you think I am lying, you do not have to read my articles.  Just for the record, I get accused of being a liar or fanboy or paid advertiser or ... (fill in the blank) fairly regularly, so you are not original.  I do this because I enjoy doing it.  I do have a day job (for http://www.ci-systems.com/HTMLs/Home.aspx - this company ), so I do not rely on my writing to pay the bills.

On IOR: they have a 1-10x26 coming out that has two reticle: SFP and FFP.  We'll see how it goes.  With any new and complicated design, I try to take a "wait and see" approach.  All too often, first generation of a new product does not have all the kink worked out.

As a side note: what is the deal with pre-occupation on the source of raw glass? It is easily one of the least important reasons to like or dislike a scope.  You can make a great scope out of Schott glass or an exceedingly crappy scope out of Schott glass.  Moreover, there are other companies out there that make raw optical glass that is just as good.  It really comes down to speccing it right.

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Jon A
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 20:21
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews. 

You know, if you're going to accuse a guy of such a thing you could at least step up to the plate with an example of something you found in one of his reviews that you believe to be inaccurate.  In other words, an example of such "color."  


Posted By: tman1965
Date Posted: February/05/2011 at 23:38
I'm not going to jump on you either,... but I am going to defend ILya. I try pretty hard not to miss any of his articles because his opinions are based only on facts and only on products he has personally tested.
He is the most qualified Individual I know of to render such opinions and since he does not recieve any compensation for his troubles, other than our support and appreciation, I do my level best to make sure he knows those efforts are not in vain!... In fact, I have a simple optics policy... If ILya has not reviewed a particular optic, I simply do not purchase said optic. I figure if it's not worth his time to review, then it certainly is not worth my money to buy it. If you read enough of his articles to know his character, then you know the man is not going to lie to you, or for you. I for one, will not dis respect him by doubting his morals or his integrity.


Posted By: neilbilly
Date Posted: February/06/2011 at 12:33

I'll echo Tman, ILya is an honest man who knows more about optics than anyone I've ever heard of. He freely shares his thoughts and opinions here, and he has never displayed any brand loyalty or favoritism. If you give him a budget and an intended use, he points you in the direction of what the best fit is and if he hasn't played with one, he'll tell you. Questioning his ability to be impartial will only draw the ire of those of us who have read his reviews and posts. "which is a good sized number of folks to have irritated"


I've purchased 3 different products from 3 different manufacturers all on recommendation from ILya and am really pleased with all of them. I wasn't steered towards another product, or advised to up my budget. I owe him a firm handshake and a cold beverage of his choice if I ever meet him. 





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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: February/06/2011 at 13:02
I've met Ilya at last year's SHOT and have talked to him over the phone numerous times, so I know firsthand that he has no problem at all telling manufacturers what he does and doesn't like about their products.  I witnessed him point out faults in optics in front of reps, and some of them didn't appreciate his critique.  I've discussed a variety of topics with him, including over a few beers, and I can tell you his integrity is something that's very important to him and isn't for sale.  He is a very analytical, detail-oriented person.  I assure you without a doubt that he calls it exactly as he sees it, would never make a recommendation for any product he hasn't thoroughly evaluated, and would never give you anything but the honest truth as he sees it.  He has absolutely nothing to gain from reviewing any product favorably.  If you ever met him, you would realize this pretty quickly.  He has forgotten more about optics than any other 5 people I know combined will ever know. 

That's the truth, and you can bank on it as surely as the sun will rise in the east in the morning.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: February/06/2011 at 21:24
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

Ilya,  IOR seems to have some scopes coming to market allowing dual use having both the glass (Schott), wide magnification range,  price points and the reticles.  My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews.  Before you jump on me you would be less than human if you could avoid such a thing.  Once dependent on product or access this is unavoidable unless you're very wealthy and altruistic.  I'm not your critic and look expectantly for your name.  This should be a fabulous year for product all that remains are enough shooters with jobs to fill the order books. 

Loco whatever dude



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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: 338LAPUASLAP
Date Posted: February/06/2011 at 21:59
I have read this post twice and do not know what the original question was.

http://swfa.com/Minox-2-10x50-ZA5-Riflescope-P48158.aspx - http://swfa.com/Minox-2-10x50-ZA5-Riflescope-P48158.aspx would be my suggestion for a dual purpose dog rifle.

The reticle would work on dogs past 400...

Side Note:

Ilya please continue it is what you do and how you do it.

You are a man who is unquestionable in moral consciousness and character.

This is an inappropriate use of the word.

Fraternization or turning people into brothers is not what Ilya does he rather points out flaws in product and helps the manufactures to see the error of their ways or quality issues or tweaks they could make to their product in a brotherly fashion.

He is the very essence of a man of integrity and sound judgment.

To use any call outs or language that challenges him on this forum about being biased or unprofessional or in any arena is uncalled for and will not be accepted or taken lightly.

I can get this off my chest have been needing to for years, I would have thought about fraternization with one officer man oh man oh man (lightning strike)  She was doing it for the GI Bill and was in Logistics.  I remember Just Blushing around her...

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No one


Posted By: SD Dog
Date Posted: February/07/2011 at 09:43
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

Ilya,  IOR seems to have some scopes coming to market allowing dual use having both the glass (Schott), wide magnification range,  price points and the reticles.  My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews.  Before you jump on me you would be less than human if you could avoid such a thing.  Once dependent on product or access this is unavoidable unless you're very wealthy and altruistic.  I'm not your critic and look expectantly for your name.  This should be a fabulous year for product all that remains are enough shooters with jobs to fill the order books. 


Could a man be tainted?  Possible, however when you have to return scopes and there is no check in the mail there is less of a chance of it happening.  Ilya is a great asset considering what he does.  He is not on anyone's payroll, is highly knowledgeable about what he is doing and why, and he is articulate enough to convey what he has found to the rest of us in a useful format.  In reading his reviews, I find no favoritism to brand names and most reviews indicate that the scopes used were returned to the manufacturer or dealer so no "booty" is part of the deal.  I appreciate his work and the time he puts into it. 


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If nobody ever said anything unless he knew what he was talking about, a ghastly hush would descend upon the earth. AP Herbert

Stupidity & ignorance have been the foundation for many certainties.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: February/13/2011 at 20:44
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

Ilya,  IOR seems to have some scopes coming to market allowing dual use having both the glass (Schott), wide magnification range,  price points and the reticles.  My concern is that your fraternization with the producers lead to coloring of reviews.  Before you jump on me you would be less than human if you could avoid such a thing.  Once dependent on product or access this is unavoidable unless you're very wealthy and altruistic.  I'm not your critic and look expectantly for your name.  This should be a fabulous year for product all that remains are enough shooters with jobs to fill the order books. 
 
ILya is a person of integrity and principle.  He also an accomplished EO engineer.  I've lead teams of EO engineers who did not command as much knowledge as ILya.  To suggest that he would taint (color) a review out of a minimal relationship with manufacturers, is a crude, malicious, uninformed insult.  You speak of things you have no knowledge of.  That implies foolishness.
 
"Back off, buckwheat..."


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: March/18/2011 at 14:21
My reputation here is one of sarcasm and suspicion. I will say that Ilya produces the most accurate and scientific reviews of anyone that is putting out reviews. I don't think he receives pay from anyone other than the praise of his peers.  I have never found any bias in a review that he has produced. His methods of testing can be duplicated with repeatable results. This can not be said for the majority of writers of the shooting rags. Writers that have to do a good review or not get published because of advertising dollars.

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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: tpcollins
Date Posted: March/18/2011 at 15:17
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

With PDs scope magnification usually tops out at around 14x due to mirage.
 
This is where glass quality enters as the improvement in resolution & contrast will allow seamingly impossible ranges at lower magnifications.
 
 
This is my dilema as well. For whatever reason, I thought I needed more magnification for my .243 so I went with a Sightron 4-16x42 for coyotes.  Now I just bought a Tikka T3 Lite in .204 for woodchucks and smaller varmints.   I'm thinking better glass is paramount for small critters so I'm leaning towards the Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x44 - if my budget will allow it.


Posted By: trigger29
Date Posted: March/18/2011 at 15:42
Originally posted by cruft cruft wrote:

This canard about have one scope to do two vary different tasks just doesn't hold up.  First do you actually know any semi-serious gunman who has ONLY one rifle? 
Well, most of your other points have been commented on, so I'll tackle this one I guess. At the current time, I have no less than a dozen rifles at my disposal. Yet 99% of my shooting is done with ONLY ONE RIFLE. Yes it's true that it happens to be my favorite rifle, but I also chose it to be the one that I would be familiar with any time, anywhere, under any condition. If I'm going to shoot anything of reason with that rifle inside of 800 yards....... I expect a hit. There is no way I could learn all of my rifles that well, and keep them all straight under pressure of hunting. Maybe to you this makes me not a serious rifleman, but to me, I say beware the man with one rifle. He just may know how to use it.

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."



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