Print Page | Close Window

what could you compare the glass in the viper to

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=33707
Printed Date: March/29/2024 at 02:06
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: what could you compare the glass in the viper to
Posted By: Gappa
Subject: what could you compare the glass in the viper to
Date Posted: August/10/2012 at 23:01
I want to get an idea of the quality of the glass in the Vortex Viper.  Could you compare it to a Leupold or Nikon? or worse?



Replies:
Posted By: bugsNbows
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 12:16
To my eyes, the Viper is comparable to a Bushy 4200... and better than a Nikon Monarch. 

-------------
If we're not suppose to eat animals...how come they're made of meat?
               Anomymous


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 14:13
Better than Leupold VX2 not quite as good as Leupold VX3 would be my opinion.  It is certainly a contender but I still think a Bushy 4200 is better glass and a Conquest is better than any of these.
But Im a blind guy so I just lick em and judge by the texture and taste of the lense coatings. Devil
Its a visual thing you need to look at them and compare for yourself not everyone uses the same prescription for their glasses, and some eyes are more finely tuned to certain color tones, where others are flat out color blind, which is why you can ask ten people this same question and get ten different answers.  With Vortex buy one and try it, look at it, dont mount it or molest it just look at it, and if you dont like what you see pay the postage and send it back and get something else.  


-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 16:23
Are you in the market for another scope?

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: FunShot
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 18:46
It seems to be near identical to the monarchs even the white haze effect at high powers in terms purely on image. Don't know much regarding fov, etc... The viper psts i currently have seems to be able to focus better though on far off objects like a tree or mountain side 5km away compared to the monarchs though they are still not as sharp or focused as a friend's sf leupold 30 mm vxIII. The vxIII is reported to have not as bright an image as the viper and it seems that way though i don't know if it's because i've read the info and i'm biased but the leupold though has no haze at high powers. The newer vx3s though are reported to be as bright or brighter. I also currently have a friends elite 4200 with the front AO, the image at the higher powers is definitely sharper than the viper and there is no haze effect  probably due to the AO design. The viper and monarch though seem to have a longer eye relief than the leupold and bushy and the image both of the viper and monarch have the black circle or what they call the tunnel effect, not sure of the exact term they use and i've read here and in other forums that some individuals do not like such an effect. At the low power settings though like 10x and below, the image for me is visually as good or near identical on all the scopes i've mentioned in terms of brightness and clarity, though there seems to be a slight difference in hue or vividness between the scopes i don't have the right technical know how to describe it. Both the viper and monarch though are assembled in the exact same factory and to me seems to share similar features because of this, pure speculation on my part though so don't take my word for it, Big Grin.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 21:43
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Are you in the market for another scope?

I'm an optics nerd i'm always looking to try a different scope.
And I'm very familiar with the "tunnel" effect, actually I sent a $3600 Schmidt and Bender back because the tunnel was so bad and the eye box made it very difficult for me to get behind.
I actually have a few blind spots in my eyes from getting accidentally flashed with a GCP-2a laser designator when I was back in the service. This makes it very hard when using optics, the optics have to be almost perfect for me to be able to actually enjoy using them.


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: August/11/2012 at 23:14
Well it's official! There is nary a scope made that will make you happy! Might as we stick to Bafska or Counter-Sniper. They are used to the returns...

-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: stickbow46
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 04:47
Thanks for your service Gappa & please let us know when you find that  almost PERFECT scope Wink
What will you be using the scope for?
 


-------------
Pearls of Wisdom are Heard not Spoken


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 06:11




-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 06:40
Hell of an eyebox on that scope CT.

-------------
God save the Empire!


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 08:12
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Hell of an eyebox on that scope CT.

Great FOV and image quality is top shelf, Craig.  


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 11:18
You can poke fun at Gappa for his not liking the S&B, but I looked through one on a new Marine Corps sniper rifle a few weeks ago and didn't like it. I adjusted the focus to my eye at 300 yards, adjusted the parallax, and turned the magnification up and down. My 6x42SS is far brighter and sharper than that particular S&B was at any magnification. That particlar rifle was fresh from Quantico, so hadn't been out and abused. I would not have been happy with it.


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 11:29
Excess, first off, thank you for your Service and Semper Fi. I am a very strong supporter of SS scopes, but that it is simply not true. Saying a scope is "brighter" is a misnomer any way. But maybe your eyes are different then every one else's. 
 I am not saying the S&B is perfect. I am not saying any scope is. It is just that Gappa has gone through just about 12,000 dollars in scopes in the last three months. Do some research on his posts here. It is rather entertaining...


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 12:20
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:


And I'm very familiar with the "tunnel" effect, actually I sent a $3600 Schmidt and Bender back because the tunnel was so bad and the eye box made it very difficult for me to get behind.


I thought you'd already declared that scope "the most beautiful piece of glass you've ever laid eyes on..." over at the Hide.  Why the sudden about face?

I think you're seeking something you'll never find, but what the hell, you might as well give the March X Tactical a try since you've obviously got no shortage of funds to devote to finding the "perfect" scope.




-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RotoReuter_DM
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 13:11
If the scopes you have recently had don't make you happy I would just stop searching.

-------------
Old Mil ftw


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 14:54
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:


And I'm very familiar with the "tunnel" effect, actually I sent a $3600 Schmidt and Bender back because the tunnel was so bad and the eye box made it very difficult for me to get behind.



So are you going to move up to a Counter Sniper scope now?


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 15:07
Try a Hensoldt, best eye box in the industry.

I've used S&B, nice, but never my favorite.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 15:53
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Hell of an eyebox on that scope CT.

Great FOV and image quality is top shelf, Craig.  


"TOP OF THE LINE BABY!"   

-------------
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 19:03
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Hell of an eyebox on that scope CT.

Great FOV and image quality is top shelf, Craig.  


It almost makes you think you're not even looking through an optic, eh Mark?


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 20:00


-------------
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: castlebravo
Date Posted: August/12/2012 at 21:40
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Hell of an eyebox on that scope CT.

Great FOV and image quality is top shelf, Craig.  


Light transmission is phenomenal.


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: August/13/2012 at 07:59
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Try a Hensoldt, best eye box in the industry.

I've used S&B, nice, but never my favorite.
http://opticstalk.com/swfa-new-in-box-discontinued-sale_topic33507.html - http://opticstalk.com/swfa-new-in-box-discontinued-sale_topic33507.html

-------------
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/13/2012 at 10:58
http://swfa.com/Zeiss-6-24x56-Tactical-Hensoldt-Telescopic-30mm-Sight-P41078.aspx

If you have an issue with that scope, there is no scope yet made that will do what you want.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: August/13/2012 at 11:15
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

http://swfa.com/Zeiss-6-24x56-Tactical-Hensoldt-Telescopic-30mm-Sight-P41078.aspx

If you have an issue with that scope, there is no scope yet made that will do what you want.


I made your link "hot" RC. 

http://swfa.com/Zeiss-6-24x56-Tactical-Hensoldt-Telescopic-30mm-Sight-P41078.aspx%20 - http://swfa.com/Zeiss-6-24x56-Tactical-Hensoldt-Telescopic-30mm-Sight-P41078.aspx


-------------
P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

Ecclesiastes 10:2


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/13/2012 at 11:34
I tried.
I failed.

Mondays suck.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 11:09
Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

You can poke fun at Gappa for his not liking the S&B, but I looked through one on a new Marine Corps sniper rifle a few weeks ago and didn't like it. I adjusted the focus to my eye at 300 yards, adjusted the parallax, and turned the magnification up and down. My 6x42SS is far brighter and sharper than that particular S&B was at any magnification. That particlar rifle was fresh from Quantico, so hadn't been out and abused. I would not have been happy with it.


THANK YOU!!
The S&B "in my humble opinion" is probably the most well thought out and put together of any scope I have seen (and yes I've seen a few lately).  I have no where I can go to physically try out or examine these scopes. We have no "Riflescope-Mart" around here except for a fishing/hunting retailer about 1 hr drive away and they only have your run of the mill hunting crap none of the "good stuff"
So what should I do if I can't examine these scopes? All I have to go on are write ups and reviews on the net..


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 11:21
Gappa you cannot expect to see how the eye box really is if you do not mount and use the scope.  They have to be mounted on a rifle.  I can't believe that is all you did with the S&B. 

Any scope you just hold up and look through is going to seem to have a terrible eye box.  They exit pupil coming out of them is very small and you cannot hold them steady while having them away from your eye.  They do not work like telescopes and binos. 

You will never find a scope you will be happy with if you do not spend some time using it.  It is impossible to just hold one up to your eye and tell if it is going to be a good scope or not.  There are many parts of a given scope that you have to evaluate.  And virtually non of them can be evaluated until it is mounted on a rifle and you are putting rounds down range. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 11:21
I have a nicely done ar15 I am looking for a nice but fairly inexpensive scope for. That's what I was scoping the viper for


Posted By: Dyelynn
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 11:33
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:


 I have no where I can go to physically try out or examine these scopes. We have no "Riflescope-Mart" around here except for a fishing/hunting retailer about 1 hr drive away and they only have your run of the mill hunting crap none of the "good stuff"
So what should I do if I can't examine these scopes? All I have to go on are write ups and reviews on the net..


i'm not sure what part of south carolina you live in, but there is a bass pro shops store in Concord, NC, Myrtle Beach SC, and Savannah GA.

also stores like sports authority and dicks sporting goods would have some scopes and such for you to look through.




Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 12:57
Yes that is the retailer I was referring to trying not to break the forum rules by naming competitors..
I have been there and they don't have any serious tactical scopes, just your basic hunting BS..


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 13:17
I'm going to ask the question that I KNOW will never get answered, but WHAT are you going to DO with that AR15?  EXACTLY... I really don't understand ANY of the problems you've had and don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. 
Your comment on "basic hunting BS.."  doesn't track well, either.  There are a lot of great hunting scopes out there that could, at need, "go both ways" with no effort.  But I regress. 
So, I would like to clearly understand exactly what your intentions are for this rifle, what kind of ammo you intend to use, AND a rundown on how the rifle is set up.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 13:26
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I'm going to ask the question that I KNOW will never get answered, but WHAT are you going to DO with that AR15?  EXACTLY... I really don't understand ANY of the problems you've had and don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. 
Your comment on "basic hunting BS.."  doesn't track well, either.  There are a lot of great hunting scopes out there that could, at need, "go both ways" with no effort.  But I regress. 
So, I would like to clearly understand exactly what your intentions are for this rifle, what kind of ammo you intend to use, AND a rundown on how the rifle is set up.


By basic hunting BS I'm talking about your BSA , Bushnell , Redfield , Tasco , and all the chinese offshoots.. Then your Nikon and Leupold and some Zeiss stuff with duplex reticles.. That's their "top shelf stuff". Now I do imagine you can order some Swaro's and other higher end stuff but I'm talking about waling into a shop and looking at Premier, Hensoldt, March, USO, IOR, S&B, Vortex, ETC..


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 13:30
The AR will be a multi purpose rifle, Target , Zombie interdiction , Home defense, plinking.. But mostly shooting at the range.. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 14:59
For that all you need is a basic hunting scope.

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 15:43
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

For that all you need is a basic hunting scope.

http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-Red-Dot-Sight-P53892.aspx - http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-Patrol-Rifle-Optic-Red-Dot-Sight-P53892.aspx


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 16:21
well I could use iron sights couldn't I...... 
Man that March 5-50x56 looks awesome, I wish I could see one.(for my 308)


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 16:47
With good optics you really don't need a lot of magnification. My current favorite scope for steel on the silhouette range is my 6xSS. Its extremely bright and clear, bright to the point that I keep a sunshade on, and clear enough that I can spot 30cal impacts at 1000 yards in dry dirt. Its not a compact scope, but mine has in excess of 155MOA elevation, which is about 30MOA than the 10xSS that I've since purchased. With fixed magnification there is no need to worry about FFP vs SFP. The 3-9xSS might be a good choice(if you don't mind the size), but I think the 1-6xSS is gonna be the cats a$$ for YOUR purpose on an AR15. I also think you might like a Leupold VX-R on that.

I LIKE more compact scopes and have a variety, and have looked at/through a fair number. I DO have a fairly local shop that carries some better stuff Swaro/Zeiss/Vortex in addition to the more normal Leupold, Nikon, Burris. I don't recall the other upper end brands being there.



Posted By: BobbyH
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 17:01
All the scope you need for what you are wanting.
 
SPL15856 http://www.samplelist.com/Zeiss-35-10x44-Conquest-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P55719.aspx -
http://www.samplelist.com/Assets/ProductImages/spl15856.jpg">Click to view 5214209943, Matte, Mil-Dot, 1"
$599.95


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 17:22
Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

You can poke fun at Gappa for his not liking the S&B, but I looked through one on a new Marine Corps sniper rifle a few weeks ago and didn't like it. I adjusted the focus to my eye at 300 yards, adjusted the parallax, and turned the magnification up and down. My 6x42SS is far brighter and sharper than that particular S&B was at any magnification. That particlar rifle was fresh from Quantico, so hadn't been out and abused. I would not have been happy with it.


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 17:35
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

You can poke fun at Gappa for his not liking the S&B, but I looked through one on a new Marine Corps sniper rifle a few weeks ago and didn't like it. I adjusted the focus to my eye at 300 yards, adjusted the parallax, and turned the magnification up and down. My 6x42SS is far brighter and sharper than that particular S&B was at any magnification. That particlar rifle was fresh from Quantico, so hadn't been out and abused. I would not have been happy with it.


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?
If on a Marine Corps rifle it is most likely a 3-12x50 with MTC CCW knobs and a Gen 2 mil-dot reticle.


-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/16/2012 at 22:53
Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

With good optics you really don't need a lot of magnification. My current favorite scope for steel on the silhouette range is my 6xSS. Its extremely bright and clear, bright to the point that I keep a sunshade on, and clear enough that I can spot 30cal impacts at 1000 yards in dry dirt. Its not a compact scope, but mine has in excess of 155MOA elevation, which is about 30MOA than the 10xSS that I've since purchased. With fixed magnification there is no need to worry about FFP vs SFP. The 3-9xSS might be a good choice(if you don't mind the size), but I think the 1-6xSS is gonna be the cats a$$ for YOUR purpose on an AR15. I also think you might like a Leupold VX-R on that.

I LIKE more compact scopes and have a variety, and have looked at/through a fair number. I DO have a fairly local shop that carries some better stuff Swaro/Zeiss/Vortex in addition to the more normal Leupold, Nikon, Burris. I don't recall the other upper end brands being there.



I hear ya on the 1-4 or 1-6 scopes.. The new(er) Vortex Razor HD 1-6x24 looks very tempting, if I could find one used I might snag it.. I really don't want to spend more than $1000 on the optic for that rifle.  The big $$ goes to the bolt guns. The last .223 I set up was an H&K SL-81 with a Leupo 3-10x40 and it cut out 1/2" holes @100y..  I like shooting at very small dots and shoot for groups.. I have shot silhouette at much further distance but I like precision shooting more..


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 07:35
Here you go... more than you are asking for at less price...
 
SPL7329 http://www.samplelist.com/-P54078.aspx - Zeiss 1.1-4x24 Varipoint VM/V T* DEMO-B
http://www.samplelist.com/Assets/ProductImages/spl7329.jpg">Click to view MSRP: $1,850.00 Manufacture part#: 5216050000 ...
$899.95


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 10:08
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?


I believe he said it was a 34mm tube, don't recall the magnification, and really didn't care after he told me they were around $4K. I sighted at a target at 300yards, which was the longest at that range, under roof, but overcast day. I set the side parallax to 300 and then adjusted the eyepiece focus while at 6x(thinking of my 6xSS). I zoomed up and down, but didn't spend a lot of time despite being offered the chance to shoot it. I really just wanted a peek through something that Uncle Sam is spending $$ for. My impression was that it wasn't super bright, and not all that sharp. Actually, I thought it rather disapointing.

That entire rig is specialized, and not much of it is of use to me. Its long, heavy, and bulky with a specific purpose in mind. I prefer shorter, and lighter, but still accurate and useful for other purposes, like woods hunting. That particular rifle has a long barrel with muzzle brake that will accept a clamp-on suppressor. It has the McMillan (?) stock with adjustable comb height and LOP, and I'm sure v-block and pillar bedded. The AI triggerguard/magazine could be useful. It was based on a Remington 700 action, but it was obvious that the rear receiver bridge had been contoured differently, and it looked like the ejection port was modified as well.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 10:26
No offense, but I don't believe for a second the 6x SS is going to be better than a S&B in the glass area.  I have looked through a few and the glass in them is right up there with the best.

The original SS line glass is not as nice as the HD line, and to me a S&B appears to have slightly better glass than the HD line.  To me S&B optics seems right up there with my Z6.  I don't think you spent enough time setting the scope up to you.  Or this is just another case of someone wanting their cheaper scope to be better than a high end scope.  I have been their and done that, that is just how everyone wants to see it.  Makes us feel good about our purchases.       

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 10:27
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:


I hear ya on the 1-4 or 1-6 scopes.. The new(er) Vortex Razor HD 1-6x24 looks very tempting, if I could find one used I might snag it.. I really don't want to spend more than $1000 on the optic for that rifle.  The big $$ goes to the bolt guns. The last .223 I set up was an H&K SL-81 with a Leupo 3-10x40 and it cut out 1/2" holes @100y..  I like shooting at very small dots and shoot for groups.. I have shot silhouette at much further distance but I like precision shooting more..


I don't think the AR15/223 package a long range proposition, but have shot one to 500m and it did fine. My preference is for a bigger hammer to touch things way out there.

Shooting groups is fine while developing loads, but after that its like watching paint dry. Doping wind, mirage, and light changes over varying distances is more interesting to me. I have access to a range with silhouettes to 500, and additional rails at 850-1000 yards for the benchrest varmint game.


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 10:49
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

No offense, but I don't believe for a second the 6x SS is going to be better than a S&B in the glass area.  I have looked through a few and the glass in them is right up there with the best.

The original SS line glass is not as nice as the HD line, and to me a S&B appears to have slightly better glass than the HD line.  To me S&B optics seems right up there with my Z6.  I don't think you spent enough time setting the scope up to you.  Or this is just another case of someone wanting their cheaper scope to be better than a high end scope.  I have been their and done that, that is just how everyone wants to see it.  Makes us feel good about our purchases.       



No scope envy here. It wasn't my equipment, so didn't want to adjust any more than I did. This may well be the case of oil on the lenses or a scope that had been dropped, but it definitely wasn't what you folks are saying a S&B should be. No, I didn't make any attempt to clean his lenses, and we were under roof, so no light from the front or rear causing reflections from my glasses.

I try to be objective and welcome the opportunity to check out whatever new optics I see at the range. I've been enthused by some and turned off by others.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 11:13
I've owned a Schmidt and Bender, I've used a few and looked through more than that... while I disagree with any assessment that would place S&B glass above the Zeiss Diavari FL, it is in the "top 5" and competes well with anything there.  It is "great glass" and every Schmidt and Bender I've used has been a superior quality scope... not my favorite, but still superior. 
If someone gave me one, I would keep it...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 14:53
Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?


 I sighted at a target at 300yards, which was the longest at that range, under roof, but overcast day. I set the side parallax to 300 and then adjusted the eyepiece focus while at 6x(thinking of my 6xSS). I zoomed up and down,



Not actually being there watching you set it up it is hard to say for sure, but it does not sound like it was set up correctly. The eyepiece or diopter setting is to focus the reticle not the focus of the image and is done with the parallax set to infinity. And once it is set for your eyes it is not changed. And just because a target is at a known distance of 300yds usually does not mean that the correct setting of the parallax adjustment is the 300yd  mark on the knob. Absolutely none of my scopes line up with the true distance.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:26
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?


 I sighted at a target at 300yards, which was the longest at that range, under roof, but overcast day. I set the side parallax to 300 and then adjusted the eyepiece focus while at 6x(thinking of my 6xSS). I zoomed up and down,



Not actually being there watching you set it up it is hard to say for sure, but it does not sound like it was set up correctly. The eyepiece or diopter setting is to focus the reticle not the focus of the image and is done with the parallax set to infinity. And once it is set for your eyes it is not changed. And just because a target is at a known distance of 300yds usually does not mean that the correct setting of the parallax adjustment is the 300yd  mark on the knob. Absolutely none of my scopes line up with the true distance.
My Hensoldt parallax adjustment "lines up" with range sometimes (SELDOM), but I suspect luck... For one thing, even with LRF, you are estimating range... scope might "line up" exactly correctly (though I doubt it) and you could still think it was wrong because your SWAG is off... I sometimes use the numbers to get close and then fine tune, mostly just adjust until it is "right"...  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:32
I will say this.. Premier BLOWS S&B away in the glass dept.. There is no competition, but as far as the mechanics go I think s7b is a touch better.. I really wish I could have a chance to scope out the March 5-50x56 Tactical scope.. I talked with Mr Kelbly and he said they run from $2800 to $3300 depending on illumination and reticle choice.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:41
Gappa, how the heck do you know that the S&B has good mechanics or the Premier for that matter?  You never even mounted it on your gun, again you cannot tell these things without mounting them on a gun. 

You are driving everyone crazy with all your constant claims of knowledge about optics and shooting.  When if fact we don't believe a word you say about anything.  You have bought and sent back 4 or 5 scopes without even using them and suddenly you are a master of all things rifle scopes.  Give it up already.

And of course you will just ignore this post like you do all others where people ask you questions and make comments that you know you cannot answer, because you have never even used these scopes. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:42
from all you've spent lately thats nothing get two and send me one

-------------
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:44




-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:44
ExcellentSuperTool
 


-------------
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 15:45
Jerry Springer

-------------
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:00
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Gappa, how the heck do you know that the S&B has good mechanics or the Premier for that matter?  You never even mounted it on your gun, again you cannot tell these things without mounting them on a gun. 

You are driving everyone crazy with all your constant claims of knowledge about optics and shooting.  When if fact we don't believe a word you say about anything.  You have bought and sent back 4 or 5 scopes without even using them and suddenly you are a master of all things rifle scopes.  Give it up already.

And of course you will just ignore this post like you do all others where people ask you questions and make comments that you know you cannot answer, because you have never even used these scopes. 


You don't need to put a scope on a rifle to fiddle with the knobs...



Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:01
Where are you at in SC, Gappa? 

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:01
You don't need to drive a car to tell if it is well built!!


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:02
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Where are you at in SC, Gappa? 


Hilton Head Island


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:03
??? why you wanna go shootin?


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:05
High rollers on Hilton Head.....

Worked in Bluffton once for 30 days....Seemed like a year. 
Sand nats were killer. 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:06
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

??? why you wanna go shootin?

Sure. Laid off right now. 


-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:12
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Gappa, how the heck do you know that the S&B has good mechanics or the Premier for that matter?  You never even mounted it on your gun, again you cannot tell these things without mounting them on a gun. 

You are driving everyone crazy with all your constant claims of knowledge about optics and shooting.  When if fact we don't believe a word you say about anything.  You have bought and sent back 4 or 5 scopes without even using them and suddenly you are a master of all things rifle scopes.  Give it up already.

And of course you will just ignore this post like you do all others where people ask you questions and make comments that you know you cannot answer, because you have never even used these scopes. 


You don't need to put a scope on a rifle to fiddle with the knobs...


For some things, that is true.  However, to do things operationally meaningful you must have it in the configuration in which you intend to use it.  It is in that way that you actually find out how it works. 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:18
I can look at a Ferrari and tell it is quality.  I can look at a $20 Tasco and tell it's a POS.. I can look at a S&B and tell that it was put together well solid and well built.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:19
I am all well familiar how a scope works, you torque the rings and go shoot. You sight it in, big deal...


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:21
Yep, you've got it down... 

Carry on...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:25
What bolt rifle are you using, Gappa?  

-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:42
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

High rollers on Hilton Head.....



Yep there is tons of money here on the Island..


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 18:48
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

What bolt rifle are you using, Gappa?  


We have several, A Sauer 200, an accurized 700 LTR, 700 SPS. 
It's the SPS that I am scoping now and have a Premier 5-25x56 on the way for it..  I still have the AR to scope and was looking at the Viper PST for it


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 19:33
Woudl that be the omniscient "we" or are you one of those guys from "Men in Black"...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: excess650
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 19:37
The biggest eastern diamondback I've ever seen came off Hilton Head Island when they were clearing the island. IT was in the window of a taxidermy shop in Augusta, Ga in the early '70s. Its head was bigger than my hand and size large gloves are too small....


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 20:21
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Woudl that be the omniscient "we" or are you one of those guys from "Men in Black"...
 
Definitely not MIB,
 
none of those weapons are approved for us.
 
We do, however, know about Gappa, and have our eyes him...


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 20:50
Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Woudl that be the omniscient "we" or are you one of those guys from "Men in Black"...
 
Definitely not MIB,
 
none of those weapons are approved for us.
 
We do, however, know about Gappa, and have our eyes him...

I was talking about the aliens with two heads...


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Bitterroot Bulls
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 21:28
I see ...
 
I will check the file.


-------------
-Matt


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 21:48
Pay special attention to Paragraph 5 of Page 3...

-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 22:46
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

 
My Hensoldt parallax adjustment "lines up" with range sometimes (SELDOM), but I suspect luck... For one thing, even with LRF, you are estimating range... scope might "line up" exactly correctly (though I doubt it) and you could still think it was wrong because your SWAG is off... I sometimes use the numbers to get close and then fine tune, mostly just adjust until it is "right"...  


The range was surveyed so I am guessing it is pretty close. I was not referring to a LRF measured distance.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: August/17/2012 at 23:08
Even so, the adjustment mechanisms are coarse.  The most accurate is the objective adjustment, middle adjustments are not as finely tuneable.  So, if you are setting to the range value readable on the adjustment, it is not likely to be adjusted.  

Just a question... what range are we talking about here... surveyed ranges are pretty uncommon.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 11:45
We as in our family..  There are some very unique and rare items in our collection..  


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 11:57
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

We as in our family..  There are some very unique and rare items in our collection..  

Rare Items! That's one way of putting it.  Big Smile


-------------
Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Sparky
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 12:43
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Just a question... what range are we talking about here... surveyed ranges are pretty uncommon.  


I was told that it was done by a member who does that for a living. And it was on the 100yd and 200yd ranges. The others I do not know since they were not mentioned.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 13:11
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

I will say this.. Premier BLOWS S&B away in the glass dept.. There is no competition, but as far as the mechanics go I think s7b is a touch better.. I really wish I could have a chance to scope out the March 5-50x56 Tactical scope.. I talked with Mr Kelbly and he said they run from $2800 to $3300 depending on illumination and reticle choice.

Am I to understand the mechanicals of the S&B are better than the mechanicals of a Premier?

Are you referring to precision and accuracy of dope changes and return to zero or to the feel of the turrets and the clicks?

While I do generally agree that one can tell garbage easily by feel (and with no need of mounting it to a rifle), once you move into the tier-1 stuff - even the tier-2 stuff, if one should call an SFP Nightforce NXS a tier2 - I have personally found that I have no worthwhile opinion till I have at least 20 or so dope changes on the scope in question.  "Initial thoughts", sure; but a real evaluation on the quality of a scope - and all from spinning turrets or eyeballing it in hand, no chance, I just am not that good.

Gappa, I'm not trying to beat the dead horse, but I'll say it again here for you and anyone else spending $10k on optics they have no experience with: GET PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION!  The March won't make you happy, the Premier won't either; get a scope, have it correctly mounted, and take a good course in marksmanship and rifle optics.  I know, I know, you've been hunting forever, you know what you are doing.  Reality check: you don't know squat, you have rejected scopes that professional shooters hope to one day be able to afford, and you keep making assertions and claims that demonstrate you are in way over your head.

Cheaptrick can probably recommend a decent course in your area, take some cash, and sink it into a good course.  After that, you'll be infinitely more prepared to make a major purchase.  Before that, you are spinning your wheels and not making forward progress. (It is entertaining though, so you've got that going for you.)


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 15:22
Ok lets take the illumination dial on the S&B.. as it's rotated the positive detent clicks are very smooth and assertive.. It just feels like butter when you rotate it.  The illumination dial on the Premier is designed intuitively being hidden, when pulled out its just like a light dimmer on your wall no clicks, the good thing about it is it has an off on off on for every illumination level, but its feel is not the same.
Yes I like the clicks on the Premier they are almost like clacks, they're more audible kinda like running your fingernail through a hair comb. The clicks are very good on the S&B but very different and the locking turrets are tight as hell, when you push them down you know they aren't going anywhere.
The Parallax adjustment on the S&B is just butter smooth and will focus down to 10 meters even at 25x, I could watch the ants in the grass in my backyard from the window in my house. You almost have to manhandle the parallax knob on the Premier, not bad but I like the S&B focus more.
This is all my personal opinion and I know that doesn't count for squat, we all know what opinions are like..
But I will say I just bought a Premier 5-25 and plan on keeping it.. Out of all the scopes I looked at I liked the Premier the most.
The only two scopes that are still ? marks in my book are the Kahles 624i and the March line, I really wish I could have a chance to see what they are all about. I have an offer from "a guy" to send him $3000 and he would let me "view" a different assortment of scopes.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 16:26
Originally posted by excess650 excess650 wrote:

Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:


Specifically what did you adjust and how did you go about doing it? And what model S&B did you use?


I believe he said it was a 34mm tube, don't recall the magnification, and really didn't care after he told me they were around $4K. I sighted at a target at 300yards, which was the longest at that range, under roof, but overcast day. I set the side parallax to 300 and then adjusted the eyepiece focus while at 6x(thinking of my 6xSS). I zoomed up and down, but didn't spend a lot of time despite being offered the chance to shoot it. I really just wanted a peek through something that Uncle Sam is spending $$ for. My impression was that it wasn't super bright, and not all that sharp. Actually, I thought it rather disapointing.

That entire rig is specialized, and not much of it is of use to me. Its long, heavy, and bulky with a specific purpose in mind. I prefer shorter, and lighter, but still accurate and useful for other purposes, like woods hunting. That particular rifle has a long barrel with muzzle brake that will accept a clamp-on suppressor. It has the McMillan (?) stock with adjustable comb height and LOP, and I'm sure v-block and pillar bedded. The AI triggerguard/magazine could be useful. It was based on a Remington 700 action, but it was obvious that the rear receiver bridge had been contoured differently, and it looked like the ejection port was modified as well.

Excess650:  when you set up a side focus scope for your eyes, you first HAVE TO get the eyepiece focus dialed in correctly.  For that, set the side focus to its infinity setting, look at a distant featureless object (like the sky) and carefully tweak the eyepiece focus a little at a time, while frequently glancing away until the reticle is perfectly sharp.

Once that is done, you can use the sidefocus to get the image as sharp as possible.

I suspect that the way you had the scope set up made it appear much worse that it is.  There is of course always a chance that you saw a "lemon" S&B, but I suspect improper set up is more likely.

On the other hand, I can't help but commend you on your choice of fixed power SS scopes.  They are just plain superb, especially with the sunshade on.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 16:37
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

Ok lets take the illumination dial on the S&B.. as it's rotated the positive detent clicks are very smooth and assertive.. It just feels like butter when you rotate it.  The illumination dial on the Premier is designed intuitively being hidden, when pulled out its just like a light dimmer on your wall no clicks, the good thing about it is it has an off on off on for every illumination level, but its feel is not the same.
Yes I like the clicks on the Premier they are almost like clacks, they're more audible kinda like running your fingernail through a hair comb. The clicks are very good on the S&B but very different and the locking turrets are tight as hell, when you push them down you know they aren't going anywhere.
The Parallax adjustment on the S&B is just butter smooth and will focus down to 10 meters even at 25x, I could watch the ants in the grass in my backyard from the window in my house. You almost have to manhandle the parallax knob on the Premier, not bad but I like the S&B focus more.
This is all my personal opinion and I know that doesn't count for squat, we all know what opinions are like..
But I will say I just bought a Premier 5-25 and plan on keeping it.. Out of all the scopes I looked at I liked the Premier the most.
The only two scopes that are still ? marks in my book are the Kahles 624i and the March line, I really wish I could have a chance to see what they are all about. I have an offer from "a guy" to send him $3000 and he would let me "view" a different assortment of scopes.

On illumination knobs: there are different schools of thought on this.  Some companies design illumination controls with discreet level settings that you click through (Steiner, S&B, etc) while others prefer continuously adjustable illumination knobs (Premier and Hensoldt, for example).  It is simply a matter of design and personal preference.  Personally, I find Steiner to have the best illumination scheme in this group for my tastes.

Turret resistance is, once again, a matter of design.  Premier tend to have fairly stiff controls, although they feel a lot less stiff once mounted on the rifle.  If the Premier is already on the rifle and parallax knob feels unusually stiff, it is often an indication of improper mounting.  Loosen the front ring a little.

As far as optical quality goes, I have had S&B next to Premier a number of times.  For specific models I have looked through, I thought they were very close with Premier having a slight edge at low magnifications.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 16:38
Originally posted by Gappa Gappa wrote:

I have an offer from "a guy" to send him $3000 and he would let me "view" a different assortment of scopes.


Hell, send me $2500, and I too will let you "view" an assortment of scopes!


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 16:38
BTW I just ordered the Vortex Viper PST 4-14x50 for the AR, can't wait to see how a "3rd tier" scope will perform


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 17:41
I wondered when we were going to go full circle back to Vortex.    Enjoy. Ying Yang

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: RotoReuter_DM
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 18:21
Vortex makes a 4-14x50 PST? Sorry for the question I don't play with scopes for a living so Idk what's coming out etc.

-------------
Old Mil ftw


Posted By: billyburl2
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 18:27
I am sure he meant a 4-16x50.

-------------
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?


Posted By: RotoReuter_DM
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 18:32
That makes more sense.

-------------
Old Mil ftw


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 22:17
yea sorry that's the one


Posted By: Gappa
Date Posted: August/18/2012 at 22:40
Ive never even seen a vortex scope so I have no idea even what to expect.  


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: August/20/2012 at 07:56

Dang I was just going to offer to sell you a 4-16 PST thats LNIB!



-------------
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net