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308 AND CFE 223???

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Reloading & Ballistics
Forum Description: Anything to do with ammunition
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=43638
Printed Date: November/23/2017 at 01:20


Topic: 308 AND CFE 223???
Posted By: Lockjaw
Subject: 308 AND CFE 223???
Date Posted: November/26/2016 at 04:09
Anyone loading this powder with a 308? Going to load some 165 gr hornady SPBT's for hunting. 

Data from Hodgdon is starting 45.4 at 2649 FPS, up to 48.3 at 2839 fps.

Where would you start? 

Gun 1 is Remington 700 Tactical Model
Gun 2 is Ruger Hawkeye with 16.5 in barrel.



Replies:
Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: November/26/2016 at 08:19
I would start at the bottom with both and work up for each rifle.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: November/26/2016 at 08:58
How much increase ! Like .5 grain? Think that is what I did long time ago.

Both guns are 1 in 10 twist.


Posted By: runout
Date Posted: November/28/2016 at 19:03
    slow and easy..


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: March/10/2017 at 19:14
Would like to know how the powder performed and were there any problems?

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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: March/16/2017 at 12:18
I'm going to have to try it sometime. I've used Varget forever but while it meters okay I've always been impressed with how consistent spherical powders meter. The 4-5% increased velocity is a plus too, especially as I'm hunting more with a 16" barrel.

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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: March/16/2017 at 12:29
BLC-2 is also a great ball powder for 223 and .308.  CFE 223 is right next to it on the burn rate chart.  I have used it in .223 for many years, loading thousands of them with it. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: nralifer
Date Posted: May/26/2017 at 08:07
The reason I asked about problems with CFE223 is that I tried it in the 308Win, and had a strange problem. After a while I noted that it was getting harder to close the bolt with a live round. It was a progressive problem rather than an abrupt occurrence as one would expect if the brass was too long. I cleaned the gun and the rounds that I could not chamber well chambered with no problem. It was as if the powder was causing fouling of the throat or chamber. Never experienced that before. I was testing all copper bullets. Was getting good groups and excellent velocities. I switched to Leverevolution, and this problem never happened again. Velocities with Lvr were just as good and accuracy has been excellent to the point that it has become my favorite powder in the 308Win. There are published data in the 338 Federal for Lvr but not the 308Win, but the burn rate is slower than CFE, so one can use the lower charge weights quoted for CFE223 in the 308Win and work up. We consistently see 0.5-0.75 MOA accuracy out to 500 yards with both 308Win rifles that I have. WLRM primers also gave me the most consistent MVs. Word of caution, Lvr does not work well in in 7mm-08.

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It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. TR


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: May/26/2017 at 08:38
I love Varget for both .223 and .308. 

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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/11/2017 at 13:07
I haven't gotten around to loading any ammo yet. 

I took the gun out (700) this saturday to shoot it and see where it was. I messed up and only ended up with some american whitetail 165 grain and Federal Fusion 165. I had some Federal with 150 grain partitions and the Hornady custom with 150 grain SST. 

It didn't shoot the AW ammo to well, the Fusion it seemed to like. 

I also didn't care for the Hogue stock off a table. I just had a tougher time getting my eye lined up in the eye box of the scope (Minox ZA5), and it is mounted low in a DMZ mount. 

So I am going to try to get set up this week and load some ammo. I should have enough cases to load some with the 165 grain bullets I have, and also the 150 grain core lokts. 






Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/17/2017 at 21:07
I got out to the range at the hunting club today with some handloads and 165 gr Hornady interlocks and 150 grain core lokts. 

My 700 does not like that hornady bullet. All the the handloads were all over the place, except 46.4 grains. It shows promise being really close to 1 in for 3 shots. That is only 1 grain over the beginning load. I started at the beginning load and went up in half a grain increments. 

I have shot that bullet in the American Whitetail line, same problem, all over the place. The gun shot 165 grain fusions much better. 

The 150 gain core lokts were decent. I was a grain and 1.5 grain over starting load for a 150 g BT. 


My ruger, well it has a problem. It was just off. No idea which way either. But off in a big way. Center of standard 1 inch square target at 100 yards, aim for the middle, off the paper. Go figure. I brought it home and cinched up the scope rings and put blue loctite on them. That is the only thing I can figure. 

I am going to order a different bullet weight and see what happens there. Something besides a hornady. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/17/2017 at 21:47
My mossberg loves those hornady 165s. I can often put five rounds under an inch with it. But i use varget

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: September/18/2017 at 09:43
I typically start out at about 4 gr below the listed max charge and work up to signs of pressure and/or the target velocity on my chrono. Then, I fine tune the load in .3 - .5 gr increments around whatever charge gave me the best groups within a reasonably high velocity and low SD/ES combo. Then, I might experiment some with COAL if seating to the lands isn't giving me satisfactory groups.

I've never had any trouble finding powders that work well with .308 and its offspring. .308 seems to be very un-fussy about powder choice, so if one powder is giving you some trouble, I wouldn't fret too much trying to make it work. There are several good, proven powders for .308. I've not tried CFE223, but any mechanically sound rifle in .308 with a good barrel in an appropriate twist should be capable of good precision with Varget, W748, RL15, IMR4064, IMR4895, or BL-C2 with good bullets.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/18/2017 at 12:23
I am not sure its the powder. I have shot that same bullet with my reloads, and also with factory hornady ammo. Same results, very poor grouping. 

It may just be that my gun doesn't like that bullet and I need to try a different one. The core lokts seemed to shoot ok. 

I was going to try a Nosler Accubond or Ballistic tip and see what it does. It has 1 in 10 twist, so that generally means a heavier bullet weight would work better, right?

I also know from playing around in college with my 700 BDL 270, the sweet spot for it was 52gr of H414 and a Hornady 130gr sp. I shot another powder too, I think H4895, and never got close to that. It was well under an 1 inch. Best group I have ever shot, and it was just off a rolled up wool sleeping bag liner. 

I always thought that gun shot better running 30-06 brass through my die and using it to reload that 270 cases. 

Varget is the next one I am going to try. 

HAs anyone used Accurate powders? I was looking at their data last night, they list a ton of different bullets, and min max charges plus velocity. I know out of a 20 in barrell I won't achieve their numbers, but if it was fairly close, then I would be ok. 





Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: September/18/2017 at 20:02
I've had great results with the new Hornady ELD bullets in 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30. If I were you, I'd give either the 168 ELD-M or the 178 ELD-X a try, depending on whether your main focus is targets or critters.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/18/2017 at 20:06
Seirra game king typically shoot very well. Inexpensive too.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/19/2017 at 09:53
I may look at Sierra's, and the ELD. I have to see what I can find weight wise around here. 

I called the gunsmith at the big local store that does all their sighting in for customers, and he said he usually recommends and sights in with the bullet I am having so much trouble with. He said he would be surprised if my gun didn't shoot them well, and suggested I make sure the action screws are torqued properly, and the scope mounts are tight. 

I told him my experience with hornady bullets and a 270 has been fantastic as far as accuracy is concerned. 

I told him it seemed to like the 165 gr Fusion bullets. 

So I guess back to the drawing board. If I can get it dialed in, then I will work on the Ruger and see what it likes too. Big difference in shoulder thumping between it and the Remington. Of course the Ruger is 5.75 pounds bare. 




Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/19/2017 at 11:14
I have been struggling with my browning 300 wsm for years to get the accuracy I wanted.  I have tried 6 different bullets 3 powders with it.  About half the time I could get 3 inch groups MOAish.  Then with the 4th and 5th shot it would open up to 2moaish or a bit more. 

Yesterday I had loaded up some barnes ttsx 180s with 3 different charges of RL17.  And finally I got some good 5 shot groups.  With all three loads it shot 5 shots at 1.5 inches at 100 yards.  Two of them the first 3 were just under 1 inch and the 4th and 5th opened it up a bit more.  But I finally found the bullet that will shoot well with that gun.  It has been a bugger.  I love the gun as it with scope is in the 7 lb range so it is a joy to carry.  But kicks like a bugger. 

The 180 grain sierra game kings actually shoot pretty well for 3 shot groups, but that 4th and 5th always opened things way up.  I always attributed it to a hot barrel as it gets dang hot after 3 rounds.  But with the Barnes it still stayed into a pretty good group even getting that hot.

With 63 grains RL17 I was getting an average of 2965 fps and 1.5 inch 5 shot group. 

Sometimes guns can be buggers.  I tried the Sierra game kings 180s, sierra 175 SMK, Nosler accubond 180s, Hornady 180 sst, Hornady 200 grain eldx, and the Barnes 180s.  I have never had such a picky gun.  I was just about ready to give up on it.    


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 10:32

ST I would think 3 shot groups would be fine with that rifle being its intended use and barrel profile.  My WSM like yours does the same.  I quit trying to get more than 3 shot groups with lighter/hunting profile rifles.


When do you ever think you'd ever shoot more than 3 shots at a time anyway? in the field that is?



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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 11:27
Its not just about shooting it in the field.  It is about getting the gun to shoot the way I want it to.  I like 5 shot groups or even 10 or 20 shot groups.  Tests the gun and me. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 12:13
BREAKING NEWS!
I agree with G on this one ST. With a pencil weight barrel, getting one to group with more than 3 shots is a lot to expect. Unless you allow sufficient time for the barrel to cool between shots so each shot is a cold bore shot.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 12:26
When I got home last night, I pulled the gun out of the safe and plopped it into my Allen Sandbag thing I use for shooting. Then ran a deposit slip down the barrel channel, or rather tried. The rubber at the very end prevented it, and when I got the slip through past that, it caught in a couple places too. 

So out comes the barrelled action, and I got aftrer the channel with some sandpaper wrapped around a deep well socket. I also ran it over the pillars to smooth them out. I don't see all the flex I hear people talking about, but wondered if some marine tex epoxy down in the webbing would stiffen the stock without adding to much weight. 

I got it sanded where I could at least run the deposit slip up and down without contact. 

Then I put it back together with blue loctite. 

For good measure, I pulled the scope off, pulled each base screw out, added blue loctite (which I feel certain I did when I put it on the first time) and tightened back down. Then did the same with the rings (DNZ mount). I leveled the action in the bag, and then made sure the scope was also level before I snugged down the rings. 

I wouldn't mind a stock upgrade, but here's the thing. The gun isn't that heavy right now. My 270 BDL in a Hogue with the alum bedding block weighs more. I may look at the magpul hunter, but dang, I hate to add a whole extra pound. 

I did some research and I am going to try some IMR 4064 and probably varget and see what happens. At the very least I know it will shoot Federal Fusion 165's decent enough for my purposes. 

It will depend on what I can find at the store. I am not ordering online and paying a hazmat fee and all that. What a waste. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 12:38
I am not arguing that and agree with you guys.  The gun only holds 4 rounds and getting that many with a bolt gun at an elk is not common.  But the fact is, I wanted it to shoot better than it was.  And I accomplished that, it just took finding the right bullet.  A pencil barrel that will shoot 5 shot groups at 1.5 inches is fantastic in my book.  Plus 95% of the shooting of that gun is at the range, so why not see how well I can get it.  I have had that gun for 8 to 10 years and it has only shot 2 elk and 1 deer.  6 or 7 rounds at game.  The other 100 to two has been at targets at the range. 

Quote It will depend on what I can find at the store. I am not ordering online and paying a hazmat fee and all that. What a waste.


Ain't that the truth.  I only order hazmat stuff when I can order 50ish lbs.  When you find what it likes get a few buddies together and each buy an 8lb jug or two.  Then you don't have to change lots for a while. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/20/2017 at 14:52
gotcha.... I'm similar but after chasing those demons on mine I gave up on shooting more than 3 at a time..... been happier ever since.... again them featherweight 300WSM's are not the easiest on the old shoulder!

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/21/2017 at 16:08
I was watching something on youtube about shooting groups with hunting contour barrels and it said 3 shots was about what you could expect to group well before the barrel got to hot and started throwing fliers. 

I always felt my 700 BDL 270 didn't have that issue, but its been so long since I shot that gun, I couldn't say for sure anymore. All I know is its heavy. 

I am going to the gun store to scope out a Remington in a Magpul and see if I like it or not. I may just have to bit the bullet and get something else like a B&C, H&S, or perhaps I can find a laminated stock and add pillars and bed it. I like laminated. 




Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: September/21/2017 at 16:37
It is true.  One of the reasons target and varmint guns have heavy barrels.  I have an M40 profile .308 barrel and I have shot it 20 rounds and kept all 20 under an inch.  

Also small profile seem to be more finicky at time to find a good load than heavy barrels.  They vibrate more and are harder to find that sweet spot.  


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: September/21/2017 at 17:20
I don't recall ever killing more than three deer at once with a scoped rifle. Shotgun, yes. Rifle, no. 

I shoot three to test centerfire loads. Five or more for rimfire or to challenge myself.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/22/2017 at 10:08
I have killed 2 deer with a rifle back to back, when they let us shoot 2 doe's a day here. 

Ah the glory days. 

One of the things I like about this remington is the barrel is a heavy contour, but the gun itself isn't overly heavy. 

For example. I have 2 reminton 700's. Both in Hogue stocks. 

A 270 BDL with a 22 in barrel. It has the bedding block Hogue stock. Then I have the 700 AAC-SD in 308 in the pillar bedded version. The 270 has a Nikon Monarch 4-16x50 BDC in steel Leupold rings and bases, the 308 has a Minox ZA5 3-15x42 in a DNZ mount. The 270 is considerably heavier. So much so I don't like to hunt with it. 

Then to make matters worse I have 2 Ruger carbines, 1 in 7mm-08, and one in 308. Both sport 16.5 in barrels. The 7mm is a 6 pound gun, the 308 is 5.75 pounds, without scope, sling and ammo. And I satisified my itch for a lever 30-30 last year by getting a 1971 Marlin. It's not very heavy either. 

If I am going to a shooting house, I don't mind a heavy gun, if I am hiking in carrying a climbing tree stand, my backpack and extra clothes, then I do. And sometimes in a shooting house, a 22 in barrel long action rifle is a little to long. 


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: September/22/2017 at 11:42
I've shot and dropped 4 deer in one string before under a depredation permit using an AR but for hunting I only need 1 at a time.... to much work cleaning and processing to do more than 1 at a time.  I normally donate the deer killed under the permit to the migrant workers on the farms.

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/23/2017 at 18:59
Well I was not able to get any IMR 4064 but I did score some BL-C(2) and some 178 Grain ELD-X bullets. 

I went ahead and got an electronic scale while I was at it. 

So I loaded these using 180 grain data, starting at 42 grains. I went up in .5 grain increments to 45. The max charge on 180's was 46. 

Those are some long bullets. 


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: September/25/2017 at 13:51
 I loaded the ELD-X and also some 168 NBT"s with the BL-C2 and went to the range yesterday. Results were dismal again. 

So this AM I took the gun down to the gunsmith with 5 boxes of diffeent ammo, and said please see if you can sight this in, or find out why I can't. 

The gunsmith asked me what the groups were like, I said 5 or 6 inches. He doesn't think I could be that bad a shot. I said, well, I shouldn't be, but everything I have shot out of it has grouped poorly, except the Fusion 165's. 

So he has those, some hornady custom 165's, AW 150, Federal MSR 150, and Core Lokt 150. I guess we shall see what happens. 

He asked me if how I sighted it in. I said I took it up the street to the indoor range and set it dead on with 150 Gr SST ammo at 25 yards. 



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