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SBR tax stamp ?

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Firearms
Forum Description: All makes, models and uses
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=44025
Printed Date: December/09/2018 at 15:23


Topic: SBR tax stamp ?
Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Subject: SBR tax stamp ?
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 10:32
Ok this is frustrating . So let's say I wanna convert a current AR -15 over to 300 blackout with a10.5 barrel . I would need to get tax stamp or if I don't have a buttstock I'm within my legal limits ? I've read so much on forums I don't know what to think . These laws are useless and seemed to be aimed at criminals . With us law abiding folk paying the price . If that horse hasn't been beat to death . Anyways , I was excited to start this process and now it's on hold till I find out the legality of this . SBRs are legal in may state .



Replies:
Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 10:43
Try living in Kalifornia.


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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 10:48
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Try living in Kalifornia.

Couldnt even imagine it . Your rights are constantly under attack . We have a swath of city people retiring here and bringing with them their votes . They are better educated and enlightened then us lol . They can keep the cities .


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 11:34
Okay, so... first the disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer, this information is "best of my knowledge" and you can't sue me if I get something wrong, in part or in full.

Now...

1.  If you have a rifle that was manufactured as a rifle, you cannot simply swap the buffer tube and call it a pistol.  Well, you can, but if BATFE gets involved, you'll lose.

2.  To have a pistol lower, it has to have begun its life as a pistol lower. Same with a rifle.

3.  If you wish to convert anything to SBR, it requires a stamp.

4.  If you have a pistol AR with a "brace" like the sig brace, you are legally good, unless you shoulder the brace like a rifle stock.  Again, BATFE sees it or it is documented, you could have issues.

5.  I have seen in person and in youtube videos individuals using various braces as shoulder stocks and they have not, then and there at least, been arrested and flogged.

6.  You can do a form1 or a form4 to accomplish what you want.  If you go form4 and someone else etches it as an SBR, they keep the lower the whole time. On form1, I'm not sure where the lower stays.

7.  Wait time for my last was 8 months, I got it in December, it might be a year now.




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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 12:37
+1 what RC said.
Best to find a Special Other Tax (SOT) FFL dealer, or manufacturer who can answer your questions. You can also call your local ATF office and ask them.
When something comes with a chance of a $10,000 fine and/or 10 years in club Fed, you want all the eyes dotted and all the teas crossed.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 12:57
I just finished doing this and RC is dead on the money. If the lower has ever had a rifle upper attached to it with documentation, it's a rifle by ATF classification. If you remove the stock, it a rifle without a stock. I SBR'ed a pistol lower attaching a stock after I got my tax stamp back from the ATF. By BATFE standards my lower is and will always be a rifle lower. I can't change the buffer tube a say it's a pistol again. They don't work that way. As for the Sig Brace, I had one, with the second OPINION letter from some unelected bureaucrat calling into question it's legality I decided the 200 dollars for a tax stamp is not worth the aggravation or the money it would cost to be the test case. I signed the petition to repeal the NFA. It BS, only the law abiding follows law. Gang members don't give a rip. End of Rant!

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 13:49
Thank you everyone . This sucks and just got more expensive.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 15:34
Just buy a new lower that has never had a stock attached to it and you can make it into a pistol and keep it that way til you get your stamp on a form 1.  You just can't make it to the pistol if it has been in a rifle config. 

It is amazing to me how many folks openly admit on facebook and forums that they use the braces as shoulder stocks.  If a guy is going to do it out in the woods so be it.  But don't advertise it all over the place under your real name.  Loco 

I did the pistol for a while during my 8 month wait.  Shot it a couple times and didn't care for it at all.  After that it just sat in my safe with my two short barreled uppers waiting for my two sbr form 1s to be completed.  

On the form one, you can keep a hold of the lower during the wait.  You fill out the form and put the serial number and model number, caliber and length of barrel and length of firearms on the form.  Then before you get your stamp you need to have it engraved with your name (or trust name) and city, state, you live in.  ( I would get a trust made up, you can have a lawyer do it for $100.  Totally worth it, then family members can legally have them in their possession if they are on the trust)

This is totally my opinion after doing this.  Make sure you know why you want the sbr.  They are not as great as they sound.  First they are way louder than 16"+ counterparts, I mean way louder. My .223 even with the suppressor you need hearing protection.  My 8" 300 blk with a 9" suppressor I was shocked at how loud it was.  You don't need hearing protection, but it was way louder than I thought it would be.   Second you loose a ton of velocity (which depending upon your needs and the caliber may be a problem), and third the muzzle flash is huge vs the longer barrels.  I bought them because I intend and do use a sound suppressor on them all the time and I wanted them to be about the length of a regular carbine.  Knowing what I know now and knowing my needs, I would not do it if if were not for my suppressors.  No way in heck.   

Obviously others have their reasons which may be much different than mine.  


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 16:21
I appreciate all the wisdom . Going do more research . My whole goal with this rifle was to more or less train and not break sound barrier . I could still accomplish that with longer barrel . So that maybe my better route for now . Just wanted both short barrel and a hoping one day I could buy a can . However , I will have that stupid stamp lol . Back at square one . Here comes a new lower .


Posted By: J
Date Posted: March/28/2017 at 22:42
When you take possession of the new lower, ensure they list it as "other" on the 4473. It isn't technically a pistol or a rifle yet. If they list it as "rifle" you can run in to the same issues.

Then, you make it into a pistol when you build it (assuming you want a pistol while you wait for your stamp).

Be careful... Stamp collecting is very addictive.


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 04:41
Originally posted by J J wrote:

When you take possession of the new lower, ensure they list it as "other" on the 4473. It isn't technically a pistol or a rifle yet. If they list it as "rifle" you can run in to the same issues.

Then, you make it into a pistol when you build it (assuming you want a pistol while you wait for your stamp).

Be careful... Stamp collecting is very addictive.

Thank you sir . Good advice . NFA stamp collector in the future lol .


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 06:11
A 300 in 16" is about as quiet as you'll get, that is the route I would take it considering getting into it. You can play with subs and the supers - though more expenseive than 223, hit harder inside a hundred yards or so than anything but the biggest 223 rounds - making several assumptions.

As for SBR utility, they are great for room clearing and maneuvering around tight spaces; if you have no need of that, you probably don't need an SBR. Additionally, the shorter barrel takes velocity off what would be an overpenetraring round. And, best of all: every shot in a confined space (without a can) is a flashbang, which is great so long as you have hearing protection and that other guy doesn't.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 06:49
Originally posted by J J wrote:


Be careful... Stamp collecting is very addictive.
PREACH IT!

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 08:27
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

A 300 in 16" is about as quiet as you'll get, that is the route I would take it considering getting into it. You can play with subs and the supers - though more expenseive than 223, hit harder inside a hundred yards or so than anything but the biggest 223 rounds - making several assumptions.

As for SBR utility, they are great for room clearing and maneuvering around tight spaces; if you have no need of that, you probably don't need an SBR. Additionally, the shorter barrel takes velocity off what would be an overpenetraring round. And, best of all: every shot in a confined space (without a can) is a flashbang, which is great so long as you have hearing protection and that other guy doesn't.

Think you just summed it up quite nicely . Was thinking of using SBR as trainer and home defense but it could potentially take my senses away it's not best . So I will start with 16 inch barrel and experiment. Thank you guys for saving money and costing me money all at the same time 😂


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 09:22
You might try this web site. they have a legal section, and the guy knows his stuff. I have seen a few comments here that may not be factual, especially after the rules change that were recently enacted by the ATF&E.
http://www.subguns.com/


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 09:26
Thank u


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 10:42
Beltfed, if any of mine were off the mark, please correct! I don't want to spread bad info.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 14:25
I'm not saying anybody is wrong, but there has been a big rules change concerning transfers with the ATF with in the last year. Asking about the rules on a forum may not get you the correct information you need, so it's best to get your information from a reliable source. In fact I'm going have to ask my FFL holder and attorney about the rule changes about a few things myself. At one time he could import and deal in anything but nuclear devices, and he has beat the ATF in the Supreme Court on a related issue, so I trust his advice.

It is my understanding (remember, I am not an attorney, FFL dealer, manufacturer, or ATF agent) that a receiver is recorded as a pistol OR a long gun, and are NOT interchangeable. YOU  can do a form 1 on the receiver of either and change it into a SBR. I think you can poses the parts and receiver, but you can't assemble them until your form 1 is returned by the ATF with the stamp. A form 4 is for a transfer, so if someone else manufacturers a SBR on either a Form 1, or a Manufacturers' license, a form 4 is needed for the transfer along with the tax stamp. The SBR stays with the form 1 holder or licensed manufacturer until the form 4 and tax stamp are returned by the ATF.
It is also my understanding that if you do a trust, everyone in the trust must be listed on the trust, and must be finger printed, photographed, and submitted for background investigation, but I'm not certain about the investigation.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 14:35
RC, what BeltFed is referring to is the pistol SBR'ed to a rifle post. The argument that went before the Supreme Court was about a TC pistol conversion kit, the ATF lost that case. My statement is an AR lower that has been paper worked as a rifle or SBR, once done so will always be a rifle or SBR. The serial number is now registered with the BATFE as a SBR. I can't change it back into a pistol configuration and sell it as a pistol or put a 16+ inch barrel on it and sell it as a rifle.

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 14:36
The documentation part on trust is correct, all go through what was previously reserved for the individual transfers.

I do all my SBRs as form4s, and the class3 dealer hold the lower till the stamp comes through.

Thanks for the clarifications.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 14:44
A receiver is recorded as "other" when you fill out the form 4473.  Question 16  Its not a rifle or a pistol until you put whatever stock on it. 

Question 16. Type of Firearm(s):
"Other" refers to frames, receivers and other
firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as
firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act
(NFA) firearms, including silencers.
If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun
(rifle or shotgun)
, it is still
a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are
still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other
firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a
licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the
age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be
made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be
transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to
anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also,
note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any
firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under
Section 923(g)(3)(A)

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: March/29/2017 at 14:48
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

I think you can poses the parts and receiver, but you can't assemble them until your form 1 is returned by the ATF with the stamp.


I would also be really careful about this.  He knows how they would treat it if they wanted to be a dick that day.  That dude that was selling "solvent traps" got in trouble by the ATF because those traps had all the parts to make a silencer.  So they got him and possibly  people that bought them with constructive intent. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: June/26/2017 at 15:10
I did the NFA trust before the July 2016 deadline last year. I used a stripped lower I bought and "transferred" it to the trust for my SBR. I had an additional spare stripped lower, and ordered a pistol kit for it, and then purchased the SBR upper. 

My wait time was 8 months or more. 

What I think is dumb is you could own an AR15 and a pistol version and pop the pins and make your AR an SBR. So to me it makes no sense to even require the tax stamp to begin with. You would have the ability to make an SBR regardless of intent. 


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: June/26/2017 at 16:23
It is the possession of a SBR that requires the stamp for the specified serial number.


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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: June/26/2017 at 18:35
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

I did the NFA trust before the July 2016 deadline last year. I used a stripped lower I bought and "transferred" it to the trust for my SBR. I had an additional spare stripped lower, and ordered a pistol kit for it, and then purchased the SBR upper. 

My wait time was 8 months or more. 

What I think is dumb is you could own an AR15 and a pistol version and pop the pins and make your AR an SBR. So to me it makes no sense to even require the tax stamp to begin with. You would have the ability to make an SBR regardless of intent. 


The same is true of many things, it might be stupid, but it is law.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: September/28/2017 at 19:14
Just a update . I've started the processs of paperwork . Bought a 10.5 in ballistic advantage Hanson profile barrel and still have a lot of goodies to buy . Just gotta wait on stamp and look for sales and piece it together. Thank you again gentleman. I was hesitant to share but I owe you guys that . You took the time and I will as well. Tonight I will read about adj gas blocks . Good stuff , I enjoy the research . I will keep you guys posted .


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: September/28/2017 at 19:41
Oh yeah I went the shorter route because I would like to put a trijicon red dot on it and smack steel inside 100 yards . Don't care about the sound anymore . My neighbors and family have all become gun owners. We've had quite a spike in crime . But it's good to have them involved . We all know each other's cars and watch each other's houses . Like a little community. But truth be told law enforcement would be 15 to 20 mins away unless you got lucky . So yeah you know . Side note , I like the Bible verse trijicon puts on thier optics .


Posted By: sucker76
Date Posted: October/01/2017 at 13:17
223/5.56?  An adjustable gas block will be very nice.  Most of those barrels in any length are over gassed to ensure reliability.  I used a Odin works block on a 8" 300BLK and like it very much.  There are many to chose from.  They also help a lot when using a suppressor.  It cuts the gas to the face way down. 


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Stamp collecting since 2015


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/02/2017 at 15:41
I honestly didn't notice mine, at 11.5 inches, was that loud compared to a regular length one. I tell you want I do like about it. 30 rounds and I think its more compact than a pistol in outstretched arms. 

I just like to pick it up and shoulder it and stuff. Nice and light. 


Posted By: Greenhorn#1
Date Posted: October/03/2017 at 19:35
Sucker 76 it's a 300blk barrel . As stated my original intention was to keep from breaking sound barrier and shooting subs . I will continue with that goal but the hearing protection act was shelved indefinitely due to vegas . Idk what to think but shelving that bill sure seems wrong . It feels like those that want control got a victory .


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: October/04/2017 at 07:49
It's because the media portrays them as silencers, when that is not the case. But then again, they have successfully made everyone who is a sheep think a store bought AR15 is a fully automatic machine gun. You would not believe how many people I have had to educate on that tidbit. 





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