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AR Build (distance)

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Topic: AR Build (distance)
Posted By: HKtoTikka
Subject: AR Build (distance)
Date Posted: October/07/2017 at 14:13
OK, so I have been thinking more and more about putting together a 223 AR for distance shooting.

I have some parts, and some ideas and a list.

I want a 20 inch barrel, so that eliminated Seekins.

I am really liking the FDE color, so i have some hoops to go through here.

First.  Available parts.  I have a PWS 'commando' lower, post-ban I can use.  I also have an A3? flat top upper.  However, to get them cerakoted would be about 160.  There is a local place (Houston) called Cerakoters, strangely enough, that charges 80 for an upper or lower.  However that also puts me at the price I see some Aero Precision blems at on there sale page.  So it seems silly to have them coated, I could save them for a pistol build, and just get the set from Aero.

Then there is option 2.  I have another lower I bought, which is heavier duty build.  from Armitage/SOCOM.  When I put the A3 upper on it, you can see how much thicker it is.
Dont ask me why I chose blue.






Second.  I want to go adjustable gas lock on this.  I want that for tuning to loads, possible suppressor, and wear and tear and accuracy.  That of course entails a light weight BCG, lighter springs, etc.

So here is the list I came up with.  


Rifle Build
    1. LaRue 20" Stealth 1:8 M4 medium (.750) w/ gas tube               260 
    2. Superlative Arms Adjustable Gas Block (.750)                             99
    3. BCM Gunfighter charging handle medium mod 4                         50 
    4. Geissele  SSA-E                                                                          240 
    5. Seekins parts kit                                                                            90  
    6. Faxon Lightweight BCG                                                               249
    7. JP Captured Spring Kit                                                                170
    8. Luth-AR MBA1 stock                                                                   139
Upper/Lower
    1. Aero Precision stripped FDE set                                                  170  
    2. Cerakote my own PWA/whatever                                                160 Cerakoters
    3. Cerakote Diamond/SOCOM Lowe                                                 80
    4. AE Enhanced Upper 12/15                                                            315
    5. Fortis Switch Handguard 12                                                         270    
 
Question.  How does one handle tuning the gas block if their handguard covers it?  Is it easy to adjust through it?  Are some handguards easy on off?  


Any  feedback appreciated. 




Replies:
Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: October/07/2017 at 14:40
I do it with the hand guard off, tune in the block for the load and put the hand guard back on.

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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/07/2017 at 21:45
I would forgo the Luth AR and get a magpul prs. It is 3 times the stock.

also check out Criterion barrels. May say you a few bucks over a LaRue

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: October/08/2017 at 10:53
Possibly stupid question - my speciality, I think - but what do you plan to do with the gun? What do you consider long range? Do you reload?

Will this be a strictly range gun, always from bench or prone, always fair weather?

In most cases, I have a well-defined purpose before a parts list. If this is just a “I want it”, I get that, have done it many times; but if it is a purpose-built gun, knowing the true purpose will help with the directing.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: October/08/2017 at 17:19
I would probably suggest a different chambering.  6.5 Grendel and the related 6mm Turbo are better chamberings for longer ranges.

Beyond that, RC's question is important: will you be doing positional shooting with it? or only bench/prone?  Will this rifle ever be carried?

That will drive the choice of several of the components.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/08/2017 at 21:46
It isnt my intention to use it for mostly target/bench/paper hole punching.  And yeah, there is a whole lot of I want it.

I do not intend to carry it, go hunting with it where I have to hump it.  I was thinking of a suppressor in the future (or I was with SHARE act).  So maybe it could be used for hog killing.  I also want to assemble something tunable as opposed to the ARs I have now (Armalite AR-15 A2/AR-10TC).  

I do understand that .223 isnt the best caliber for long distance, but I would prefer to see what I can do with that caliber.  I intend to reload and have gotten myself a good starting set of equipment and dies, (.308), but my philosophy is to use up my surplus ammo first and increase my shooting ability before I start loading better than I can shoot.  Yes, I do understand I am talking about something with a twist more suitable to heavier .223 rounds than your standard milsurp.

To be honest I havent contemplated other chamberings than .223.  Also, to be honest I really dont know how important that extra 2 inches is between 18 and 20.  I was assuming its some more fps and very helpful at longer range.


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/14/2017 at 08:13
I think I will Google pros and cons of other AR calibers..
Also rethinking my distance remarks, because that is what my .308 is for.
Leaning towards mid-range, 6.5 Grendel.

Linking some good stuff here for the future.
http://abesguncave.com/build-your-own-ar-15-a-complete-guide/ - http://abesguncave.com/build-your-own-ar-15-a-complete-guide/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/jeremy-s/ar-15-flash-hiding-test-2/ - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/jeremy-s/ar-15-flash-hiding-test-2/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-muzzle-brake-shootout-2/ - http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-muzzle-brake-shootout-2/





Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/20/2017 at 05:32
OK, after much consideration I have tweaked my requirements and design a bit.
I have gone with 6.5 Grendel and 18" as a length, because it will be carried some.

And because its a different cartridge and should be fun to do something new.And because its an awesome varmint cartridge.

Otherwise here is what I have ended up with
All ordered except the last 3 items

Faxon 18" .750 Nitrided  (mid length)
Monster bolt
Magpul MOE FDE Rifle stock 
JP Lower parts kit
Seekins adjustable gas block                               
BCM Gunfighter charging handle med mod 4
AP Enhanced Upper/MLOK Rail
Sharps Blem NPR BCG
Smith Enterprises Vortex FH                               
Larue MT Trigger
E-Lander Magazines                    
Cerakote my Diamond Lower                                 

I'll wait for Black Friday on Larue, probably Alexander and I need to get my lower coated.

I ordered a bunch of steel case Wolf for barrel polishing/plinking/whatnot

I ordered a bunch of Hornady Black for more serious/case collecting.

I have a set of Seekins low rings/SWFA 3x9 I'll put on it.
I also need to see what happens on Black Friday here.


I still have to make up my mind on the pistol grip.


And I think I am going to change to superlative arms for the gas block.


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/20/2017 at 05:39
Side question.

Can anyone identify this pistol grip?  

I like the finger grooves on it.  I found this on the AR15 forums, Variant Builds/Aero Precision M5 308 thread




Posted By: cpwomack
Date Posted: October/20/2017 at 06:36
Looks like this one:

https://seal6tactical.com/products/jtm-sports-ar15m4-ergonomic-rifle-pistol-grip-finger-grooves-w-storage

JTM Sports pistol grip


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/20/2017 at 07:52
Thanks


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: October/20/2017 at 08:11
watch shooting that steel case stuff, can really eat a shell deflector up in a hurry, put a piece of stick on felt over it to protect it if you don't wanna see chips or gouges in it.

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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: October/21/2017 at 20:51
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/match-rifle-uppers.html - https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/match-rifle-uppers.html

-------------

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: October/22/2017 at 13:05
Good choice on the Grendel.

I am very fond of my Grendel AR and use it for all sorts of stuff.  Had it out at the range for testing a scope a couple of days ago as a matter of fact.

Mine has a BHW barrel (since before they were merged into Columbia Group) and it is shooting weirdly well, considering that it hails to the times when BHW was having some issues.

It is a 18" medium weight barrel, so the whole rifle before optics is around 7lbs.  The scope that is sorta dedicated to it is SWFA 3-9x42, so I think you are making you a good choice there.

I put a 15" Lancer carbon fiber handguard on there since it helped me get the balance back a bit even when using a very lightweight stock.  If I were to do it again, I would probably put a Brigand Arms handguard on.  I am using one on a different AR and it is freakishly light and surprisingly comfortable to hold onto.

ILya


-------------
http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: xphunter
Date Posted: October/23/2017 at 07:17
HK/Tikka,
How far do you want to shoot this?


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/23/2017 at 10:44
I figure up to 600 max.

But I am reading its should be good for a bit more, now that might dictate better optics, of course.

I have been spending a bunch of time on the 65Grendel forums.



Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 07:16
I have also been contemplating using the SWFA 3x15 HD from the CZ 455 and using it instead of the 3x9?  

I can research that here though.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 09:42
Is the question SWFA 3-15 or SWFA 3-9?

The glass on the 3-9 is a little better.

The turrets on the 3-9 are MUCH better (both are mechanically consistent, both are audible and tactile, the 3-9 resets much simpler and feels more sturdy.)

Obviously, the 3-15 has more magnification.

The 3-9 at 9X is easier to get behind comfortably than the 3-15 at 15X.

The reticle in the 3-15 FFP is not very useful at 3X, the same is not true of the 3-9.

I have both, I use both, I really like both, but they do different things better.  For a pure range gun, the 3-15 works.  


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 10:44
Alos the 3-15x is not HD.  It is part of the classic line. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: xphunter
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 13:07
Originally posted by HKtoTikka HKtoTikka wrote:

I figure up to 600 max.

But I am reading its should be good for a bit more, now that might dictate better optics, of course.

I have been spending a bunch of time on the 65Grendel forums.



What size targets and from what kind of shooting set-up?
Bench, prone, sitting, etc...?


Posted By: SVT_Tactical
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 14:29
My Grendel wears a Sightron SIII 3.5-10 and I love it.  Its nailed a yote' at over 800yrds for me... I am a fan of better glass over more magnification..... I like the 3-9 better than the 3-15 for a workhorse.

-------------
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: October/25/2017 at 15:40
Ahh, thanks all. I don't know the breakdown bench to field until it happens. Distance shooting will be bench and prone at longer distances, thats the way the range (American Shooting Center) is setup in Houston.

I was thinking the 3x15 was HD. As it is, I'll use the 3x9 HD until it isn't sufficient.

Just thinking. 

 The Superlative Arms GB is finally back in stock at Midway, ordered. I found another coating company in Houston, IA Coatings, who sound solid and will do the lower for 53.

Parts are accumulating.  I'll try and drop off the lower for coating tomorrow.


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: November/16/2017 at 20:50
Update on the parts and some changes/evolution

Here is the build to date:

Rifle Build (New)  6.5 Grendel
  1. Faxon 18" .750 Nitrided  (mid length) 
  2. Monster bolt                                         
  3. Magpul MOE FDE Rifle stock            
  4. Spikes gas tube med. melonite             
  5. JP Lower parts kit no trigger                
  6. A2 Rifle Stock Completion Kit            
  7. BCM Gunfighter CH  mod 4                
  8. AP Enhanced Upper/MLOK HG 15    
  9. Sharps Blem NPR BCG                       
  10. JTM Pistol Grip                                   
  11. Superlative Arms adj gas block           
  12. VG6 Gamma  65  compensator                              
  13. AADMOUNT 30 mm (blem)                 
The bolt and barrel are Faxon group buy on 65Grendel.  I have read some nice things about their barrel and 5R rifling.

I will wait on Larue Black Friday for the trigger.

I also went overboard and paid for a 12" Faxon 65G barrel for a pistol build.

Waiting for some email from Jon on the mount and I ordered a throw lever for the 3x9 SWFA.  I actually ordered the lever and a set of caps before I found the caps I had already ordered for the 3x9 before.
No rubber bands and $20 bills for me...

Getting anal on 2 tone FDE and black, so I will have the mount and lever cerakoted with the lower to contrast with the scope. But I think I have learned that Magpul FDE and Aero Precision FDE are a bit different.



Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: November/16/2017 at 20:55
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

My Grendel wears a Sightron SIII 3.5-10 and I love it.  Its nailed a yote' at over 800yrds for me... I am a fan of better glass over more magnification..... I like the 3-9 better than the 3-15 for a workhorse.

At some point, I do need to check out  a Sightron.  There have been lots of recommendations.  What I really need to do is get out and shoot my stuff, but my percussion hobby has taken a bit of a back seat to my brewing hobby with the GF.


Posted By: Marine24
Date Posted: December/06/2017 at 17:04
Timely thread.  I just purchased a 6.5 Grendel AR that hopefully will arrive early next week.  Really didn't need one but don't have an AR in this caliber and it was too good of a deal to pass up.

I'm curious to shoot this alongside my 6.5CM AR and future 224 Valkyrie (hopefully next month).


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: December/06/2017 at 21:38
Originally posted by Marine24 Marine24 wrote:

Timely thread.  I just purchased a 6.5 Grendel AR that hopefully will arrive early next week.  Really didn't need one but don't have an AR in this caliber and it was too good of a deal to pass up.

I'm curious to shoot this alongside my 6.5CM AR and future 224 Valkyrie (hopefully next month).

Anxious for your thoughts on the .224 Valkyrie… I've been considering one…
I have two Grendel's… one 14.5 inch, one 20 inch.  They both shoot "lights out"...


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Marine24
Date Posted: December/07/2017 at 08:17
Hopefully should have the JP barrel in by late Jan/early Feb.  It has a +2 gas system on it, so it will require a 17" hand guard for those that don't like an exposed gas block.  I'm hearing Seekins, Larue, LWRC and Savage all plan on rolling something out but seems everyone is waiting on the production reamers to hit the street, as well as ammo.  Shot Show this year should be interesting with this caliber.

Appreciate the info in the Grendel.  Mine is an 18" barrel and looking forward to see how it performs at the 6-800 yard ranges.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: December/07/2017 at 10:42
I've converted my 14.5 inch to piston (actually Bigdaddy did that for me, as I was travelling a lot) and really like the performance.  As for range, I've only shot out to 500 with this rifle, but it is excellent at that range.  Well under 1MOA.  
I am highly infatuated with the Grendel round.  Suppressed on my 14.5 inch, recoil is not noticeably different than 5.56, with heavier bullets/better performance downrange… I've been using the Alexander Arms 129 grain Hornady SST's and Lapua 123 grain Scenars.  I made the mistake of getting some "on sale" Wolf 100 grain stuff… doesn't perform well AT ALL.  My 20" gun does OK with it, but it is also very "dirty".  I won't ever put Wolf products through either of those guns again even though AA says it should be fine.  


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Marine24
Date Posted: December/07/2017 at 11:52
Good to know.  I just bought a case of the Hornady Black 123gr ammo plus a single box of their 130gr Bergers.

The Wolf's price was attractive but never been a big fan of steel cased ammo and agree they can be very dirty.  Prvi Partizan has 100gr loads that are about 20 cents cheaper than the Hornady Black but haven't found them in stock.

I've used Prvi ammo in my AR and bolt rifles and they aren't bad for range fodder.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: December/07/2017 at 11:58
Originally posted by Marine24 Marine24 wrote:

Good to know.  I just bought a case of the Hornady Black 123gr ammo plus a single box of their 130gr Bergers.

The Wolf's price was attractive but never been a big fan of steel cased ammo and agree they can be very dirty.  Prvi Partizan has 100gr loads that are about 20 cents cheaper than the Hornady Black but haven't found them in stock.

I've used Prvi ammo in my AR and bolt rifles and they aren't bad for range fodder.
I was going to get the Privi 100 grain, but none in stock when I was looking…  I forgot about it… wish I had waited.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: December/08/2017 at 20:52
I have a ton of parts, waiting on some stuff.

Waiting on Group buy 18" Faxon barrel (and bolt).
Brownells shipped the NoGo gauge but the Go is still back-ordered.  As are the mags from Larue.
I also ordered an upper squaring tool and grit, it shipped from Brownells.

I defiled the Aadland caps, throw lever and Aadmount with spray paint, after a couple days I'll hit them with the clear coat.

I can assemble the lower any time now.  I got the Larue MBT the other day.  The lower is back from cerakoting.

I will need to buy a vise for the upper work.


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: December/08/2017 at 21:05
There is a new cheaper ammo solution than the Hornady ELD Black.  Its Hornady American Gunner, so far strictly for Sportsmans Warehouse.  They regularly have it 139/200.  They had it on sale a couple weeks ago for 109, but of course out of stock.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: December/08/2017 at 22:06
Originally posted by HKtoTikka HKtoTikka wrote:

There is a new cheaper ammo solution than the Hornady ELD Black.  Its Hornady American Gunner, so far strictly for Sportsmans Warehouse.  They regularly have it 139/200.  They had it on sale a couple weeks ago for 109, but of course out of stock.
Have you compared the two at the range???


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: December/09/2017 at 08:59
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by HKtoTikka HKtoTikka wrote:

There is a new cheaper ammo solution than the Hornady ELD Black.  Its Hornady American Gunner, so far strictly for Sportsmans Warehouse.  They regularly have it 139/200.  They had it on sale a couple weeks ago for 109, but of course out of stock.
Have you compared the two at the range???

I have not, but all the info you could want is here:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15344-Hornady-American-Gunner-compaired-against-Hornady-Black&highlight=american+gunner - http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15344-Hornady-American-Gunner-compaired-against-Hornady-Black&highlight=american+gunner

Note that a Larue 18" is shooting as fast as a BHW 22" barrel!


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: December/09/2017 at 09:08
Be careful with the squaring tool. Take off much and it can change headspacing. And it can open up the channel where the extension goes. You want that as tight as possible

-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: December/09/2017 at 09:18
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Be careful with the squaring tool. Take off much and it can change headspacing. And it can open up the channel where the extension goes. You want that as tight as possible

Yeah, I might have been overreacting to reading about squaring.  
I also expect an aerospace engineering company not to mess up on something like that.  

Then there are their mounts though...

I also have a no-name upper I cant remember where I got it from which I will use for a pistol build.

Here is a great time killer on lapping uppers:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Lapping_upper_receiver/4-657755/ - https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Lapping_upper_receiver/4-657755/

Are there supposed to be any manufacturers marks on an upper?



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