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AR10 ??

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Topic: AR10 ??
Posted By: Lockjaw
Subject: AR10 ??
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 09:00
Can someone give me the 411 on the AR10? Aren't there like DPMS and Armalite version lowers?

I am thinking about building one. I'd probably get a PSA lower, and assemble it and get one of their uppers. I have had good success with their uppers. 

I am going to hunt with it. 

Mags, just use the Pmag I am sure. 





Replies:
Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 09:20
For better or worse, there is no universal platform as exists with the AR15.  Many companies make proprietary uppers/lowers (Sig Sauer, Rock River Arms) and many make uppers/lowers that work with the 2 generic platforms of AR10 (Armalite) and DPMS.

For the record, an "AR10" is an Armalite designation for their 308-based AR, it is not a universal term for all 308 ARs.

Be sure, whichever you get, you stick with it.  You can't mix-n-match nearly as easily as you can with AR15 parts.  I have a few ARs in short action, and no uppers work with any other lower - as each is a different maker/platform.  Yes, poor planning on my part; and don't tell my wife that it could have gone any other way!


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 11:46
As a resident of The Palmetto State and one who frequents PSA on occasion, I'd look over some reviews of their .308 offerings before placing purchase.

I have an AR15 upper/lower that I'm mildly amused by, but have read some scathing reports of the EARLY "AR-10" rifles, so there's that. Have not laid hands on one, admittedly.     


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 12:21
I built myself a 308Win AR, primairly for the experience.  I based mine on DPMS' LR-308 pattern, which is a lot more common than Armalite's AR-10.  Still, there is no "milspec" for the large frame AR, so aprt compatibility can get tricky, as I learned the hard way.

I am probably going to sell mine, simply because now that is done, I sorta lost interest, it shoots fine, but I do not like the handling a whole lot and there is a lot of mass moving around, so it s harder for me to shoot well.

ILya


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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 12:34
PSA has a "Gen 2" now, and the reviews on those seem to be pretty decent. I have two of their uppers for AR15's, both stainless. The 16in one, a freedom one at that, shoots pretty well. I think I even have their cheap bolt in it also. It has never jammed, and I have shot it more than any AR I have. 

I have also seen a hybrid lower, which uses AR15 parts kits. 

I want it to hunt with, but not if it weighs 10 pounds. 


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 12:55
Handy hunting weight AR10s are $$$$. If you want .308 powder capacity in an AR15, look at WSSMs. Those are only $$$. 

For $$, there's 6.5 Grendel. It's not .308-class. It's .250 Savage class. It will do for most hunting. You can assemble as light as your pocketbook will allow. I did a sub-7# with 20" barrel for my wife for under $700. The weight includes the scope and everything. The price does not. That was with good quality parts, too.






Posted By: Marine24
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 13:44
PSA has some good options that don't break the bank.  Getting a upper and lower of the same type (cast, forged or billet) from the same manufacturer takes a lot of uncertainty out of the equation.

I have a few 308 ARs in 308 Win and 6.5CM.  Upper and lowers aren't interchangeable, particularly since they are all billet aluminum.  Seems each manufacturer has taken some artistic license in the design of the lower that affects the fit of anything other than one of their uppers.

Larue's 308 AR Ultimate Upper Kits has "ears" on the upper receiver to mate with their Stealth hand guard which limits your options, but same feature exists with their AR15 upper kits as well.

Some components are agnostic and can be used in either the Armalite AR10 or SR25/DPMS platforms, while others are peculiar to the platform.  


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 17:54
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

PSA has a "Gen 2" now, and the reviews on those seem to be pretty decent. I have two of their uppers for AR15's, both stainless. The 16in one, a freedom one at that, shoots pretty well. I think I even have their cheap bolt in it also. It has never jammed, and I have shot it more than any AR I have. 

I have also seen a hybrid lower, which uses AR15 parts kits. 

I want it to hunt with, but not if it weighs 10 pounds. 

Freedom 16" Middy stainless here too. BCG is ROUGH as a cob, but as you say, it runs. 

    


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Marine24
Date Posted: January/22/2018 at 23:30
Weight on the 308 AR is not as bad as they were originally.  My DPMS SASS came in around 12 lbs when I got it about 10 years ago.

My 6.5CM weighs little over 8.5lbs with scope, mount and bipod.  My 308 Win AR is a little less than that.

If weight is a concern you may consider getting in to the 6.5 Grendel.  Good round to hunt with and stick with the AR15 platform.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/23/2018 at 05:20

Not the "final word" on "AR-10s" by any means, but some interesting information:


https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar-10s/ - https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar-10s/



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: January/23/2018 at 06:11
Always thought an AR10 in .243W would be absolutley mustard on shooting foxes at night under the lamp...

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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/23/2018 at 15:48
I have and hunt with one I built. To get it light cost some bucks. You might either consider buying one of the lighter off-the-shelf 16" variations. Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I went with the latter on an AR-15 platform build. With 130 gr Berger Hunter Classics it's good on antelope or deer out to 400+ yards and elk @ 200. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.

On a somewhat related note, if you have large hands consider the Ergo tactical deluxe grip. It really feels and controls much better for me.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/23/2018 at 16:56
Originally posted by Marine24 Marine24 wrote:


My 6.5CM weighs little over 8.5lbs with scope, mount and bipod. 


Can you give out your parts and specs on that rifle.  I am at some point going to build a light weight large frame AR.  My creed with scope and all weights in the 12 lb range.  Getting one below 9 all setup would be nice


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/23/2018 at 16:58
LockJaw go to Aero precisions website and sign up for their marketing emails.  They have specials several times a week where they put parts on really nice sales.  Sometime up to 30% off.  Over a few months you could buy all the parts to build a whole rifle.  THey have the M5 series that are .308 and 6.5 creed.  They also sell built ones for $1400 to $2000 depending upon how you spec it out. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: January/24/2018 at 16:12
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I have and hunt with one I built. To get it light cost some bucks. You might either consider buying one of the lighter off-the-shelf 16" variations. Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I went with the latter on an AR-15 platform build. With 130 gr Berger Hunter Classics it's good on antelope or deer out to 400+ yards and elk @ 200. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.

On a somewhat related note, if you have large hands consider the Ergo tactical deluxe grip. It really feels and controls much better for me.

Did you do Grendel or SPC? I looked at the Grendel option. 

Here is the thing. I have 308's already. I like the 6.5 creedmore. But don't want something that is 22 in barrel. I want it to be more compact. 


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/24/2018 at 16:38
I built a 18" large frame AR in Creedmoor.  Its pretty sweet.  I built mine to heavy to be used as a hunting gun though, so I stuck a 24" barrel on it and will build a lighter weight one to use with that barrel later. 

Criterion made the barrel I bought for it.  It is extremely accurate. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 07:09
Anybody looked at the Don't Purchase Might Suck (DPMS) Gen. II large frame platforms? I kinda think the Recon with it's 16 inch barrel would be a handy hunting rifle if scoped right.


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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 09:25
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Anybody looked at the Don't Purchase Might Suck (DPMS) Gen. II large frame platforms? I kinda think the Recon with it's 16 inch barrel would be a handy hunting rifle if scoped right.

I've had several large frame ARs over the years, and have moved to shorter barrels.  Yes, loss of velocity is a thing, but ease of movement is important too.

I have a Sig716 Patrol (16" tube) that is a great hunting gun.  Yes, it is a bit heavier than a 223, but hits much, MUCH harder.  And when I start thinking the Sig is too heavy for hunting, I use the AIAWM for a bit, then go back to the Sig - and it is suddenly feather-light!


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 13:54
I got all excited of the DPMS GII. Had to go buy one. Held it at the store and put it back on the rack. They're just big guns. Not as bulky as an AR10, but still a big gun. AR15s aren't exactly svelte. I'm sure it comes down to personal preference, but that's my .02.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 19:48
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.


...and bolt (bolt only, not carrier).


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 20:14
Personally, I never could muster any enthusiasm for the AR10/AR308. It has clumsy handling for my taste compared to AR15. To me, it negates the fun aspects of an AR platform rifle to begin with -- the ability to interchange a nearly endless combination of parts to make something truly unique, in a lighter, handier, more compact package. AR10 doesn't enjoy the Milspec standardization as AR15 parts do, so it suffers from parts compatibility issues if you build your own, and there's a much smaller selection of parts available for it overall vs. AR15. If you don't like 5.56/.223, cartridges like 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .458 SOCOM give you more than adequate capability for most applications up to medium distances. If I want more power than what those bring to the table, I'm going with a bolt action anyway.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/25/2018 at 21:13


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“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 10:12
Ted,  I think the flaw in your logic is prioritizing the tool over the task.  

That leads to the inevitable discussion of "do you really need...", leading to a thorough review of circumstances.  For me, a large frame AR and its +2-5 pounds over an AR15 is an acceptable penalty for the additional kinetic energy it provides.  I think of the 6.5Grendel vs 6.5Creedmore (or 6.5 vs 308) similar to 308 vs 300WM.  In comparing 308 to 6.5G, the +300FPS in similar bullet class makes enough compelling argument for me to be happy with my AR10.

That said, I am now looking at 6.5G data and might have a 6.5G in my near future.

Where mine will see most use, I can't have animals run, and a bit more insurance is worth the extra effort.  I'd rather haul an extra few pounds around than I would track through very rough country to get to an animal that ran.

For long range shooting on a range, I don't care, I don't shoot those ARs on the range for tight groups.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 12:16
I prioritize both the tool AND the task. To me, if you want better ballistic capability than the AR15 permits, you're out of AR territory to begin with.

Bolt actions give me the ballistic advantages of any cartridge my heart desires, while giving me greater mag box length latitude to load a wider selection of bullets, far better triggers, better reliability, and don't have the handling qualities of a chainsaw. The only advantage AR10 offers over a bolt action for any non-combat related application is rate of fire and mag capacity, neither is very critical for hunting. The lone exception might be feral pig eradication where there's a large group of them, but I've yet to see the pig that caused a bullet launched from a 6.5G or 6.8 to deflect helplessly off the hide without digging in. 

Kinetic energy is a poor predictor of killing power because it over emphasizes velocity and doesn't take a bullet's terminal performance into consideration. Bullet construction and its effect on rate of expansion and retained mass is what really matters. Given today's bullets, the amount of charcoal behind the bullet is way over-rated.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 12:39
We'll agree to disagree; which, for our generation, did not automatically mean one of us was a racist and/or fascist.

I've long been a "big bullet with moderate speed" over a "tiny bullet moving super fast" - and thus the love of the 45 ACP.  The issue for me comes down to that 2500FPS line where temporary cavitation wounds really make a big difference.  I want a bullet that expends the most energy possible prior to exit and that runs close to 2500FPS at the target.  And that is, at reasonable ranges I encounter, a 308 or the like.

I agree bullet construction goes a very long way (which is a big part of why my 45s stay home most days and a 9mm goes with) but have lots of anecdotal evidence that a bigger bullet well placed is better than a smaller bullet well placed.

Boundary conditions, for my part in this, are hunting applications.  For defensive and offensive weapon deployment on 2-way ranges, I have a very, very different view of ballistics.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 14:12
It's entirely a personal preference thing. I'm not arguing that velocity on target and its effect on temporary wound cavity is unimportant; far from it. I want the same dramatic temporary wound cavity you describe if possible. I'm just saying that I don't like the way an AR10 handles and think the weight:performance ratio is way skewed on that platform...too much weight and bulk in exchange for too little performance improvement. That's just my opinion, of course.

I like ARs, just not AR10s. If I want or need better terminal performance than what cartridges suitable for AR15 provide, then I'm leaving the AR at home to begin with and picking up a bolt action. The way I see it is an AR is in its element as a short to medium range weapon. The more distance you put between you and a sentient being, the less important having rapid follow-up shots becomes. I'm for condensing things down to the core elements necessary to accomplish a goal as much as possible, and a bolt action ticks all the check boxes in that regard. A bolt action offers the advantage of minimum protuberances, minimum mechanical complexity, usually a better trigger, greater reliability, and minimum weight (while permitting the important weight distribution in the right place), all while providing way better ballistic performance because you aren't constrained by having to keep COAL under 2.8" for function. This gives you greater latitude in bullet selection and seating depth, which again gives you better terminal performance.

Today's selection of bullets has completely thrown the old "minimum caliber" rules of thumb completely out the window.

To anyone who would argue that adding 2 more lbs to your rifle is no big deal, I ask you this: Given the choice, would you ever voluntarily core out a (hunting) rifle buttstock or mill a slot inside a forend and pour in 2 lbs worth of lead shot mixed with epoxy? If your answer to that is no, then weight does matter.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 14:27
Weight matters, but in a context. Circumstance dictates the tool to use, I agree AR10 is often the wrong tool; but would contend that, given the right set of circumstances, it is a great tool.



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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 16:38
Agreed on all counts, but if forced to make trade offs, even when weight is taken in context, I believe AR10 to offer a poor return on investment in the weight:performance ratio. For the same or less weight than an AR10, a guy can weild far greater horsepower in a bolt gun than .308 and other AR10 compatible rounds provide. Even the same rounds you’d chamber in a 10 will perform better in a bolt rifle. The latter allows greater mag box length for better bullet selection and COAL latitude, as well as a longer barrel at the same gun OAL due to considerably shorter receiver...all while tipping the scales at 2-3 lbs less, being significantly shorter in profile view, being more bulletproof functionally, better balanced, and lacking all the sharp corners and protrusions that stab you in the back while sling carrying. To me the slower follow-up shots and (sometimes) less mag capacity is overshadowed by those attributes.

I’m sure there’s some narrow niche where an AR10 is the superior tool over either its smaller sibling or a more powerful bolt rifle. I just can’t think of a single example myself. But again, that’s just my opinion. We all have different tastes in women, liquor, and tools.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 17:01
Who cares about all that crap.  What happened to just wanting a cool gun.  Bucky


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 17:15
Good point.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 21:15
This past weekend I had 3 coyotes running left to right in front of me at 100 yards, with an AR10 in 6.5CM. Guess how it ended? Predict how it could have with a bolt gun. There was less and 2 seconds visibility as they broke one tree line and headed into another.


For clarity: I had the 6.5CM, not the yotes. In rereading that, it could be interpreted both ways.

For clarity.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/26/2018 at 22:41
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

This past weekend I had 3 coyotes running left to right in front of me at 100 yards, with an AR10 in 6.5CM. Guess how it ended? Predict how it could have with a bolt gun. There was less and 2 seconds visibility as they broke one tree line and headed into another.

And how would it have ended any differently with an AR15 in any caliber that would function in a 15? In fact, I'd argue that in the majority of similar cases repeated, your hit % would be greater due to a livelier, handier parcel.

But you're totally missing my point. Given the ability to choose among the full gamut of available chamberings, an AR15 will handle the overwhelming majority of scenarios where an AR shines, at the short to moderate shot distances. When shot distance gets far enough that a bullet launched from the 15 is losing steam, the bolt gun capably takes over the baton. As shot distance increases, rapid follow-up shots become increasingly less important, for multiple reasons, so in that realm the bolt rifle's advantages outweighs its disadvantages most of the time... again, in my opinion.

During this past November and December, I killed exactly 25 hogs, ranging in size from about 40 lbs to 280 lbs. With a .300 Blackout...subsonic. All 25 died. The longest shot was 118 yards, and most were 50-75 yard shots. A .308 wouldn't have killed them any deader. Shot placement trumps everything else. These were all targets of opportunity while I was deer hunting; I wasn't specifically hog hunting. I took along my suppressed .300 BLK with my deer rifle because it offered the advantage of being quiet enough to zap pigs without potentially disturbing nearby deer unless they were standing really close to my pork victims. In the past, before I finally broke down and got the can, I was hesitant to take shots at pigs while deer hunting, for fear I might spook nearby deer and potentially miss an opportunity at an unseen buck. There were several occasions this fall when I killed a pig, and deer within sight only 75-100 yards from the pig didn't react to the shot. 


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 04:47

Funny... I carry my suppressed .300BLK almost everywhere along with my "primary" rifle for hunting, now. 

Is there a "hogtacular" on the horizon?



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 10:06
I guess my issue in all this is AR10 is comparable in weight to my bolt guns. It loses a bit in velocity and wins a bit in rate if fire.

In the end, I am not willing to risk a lost animal because I could have humped 2 more pounds of bigger gun but chose not to. Taken to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd, I know; but I am still of a mind that having as many bases covered as possible is a good thing - and the AR10 checks lots of boxes.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: urbaneruralite
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 12:07
A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


This forum has no pot stirring emoticon.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 13:02
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

I guess my issue in all this is AR10 is comparable in weight to my bolt guns. It loses a bit in velocity and wins a bit in rate if fire.

In the end, I am not willing to risk a lost animal because I could have humped 2 more pounds of bigger gun but chose not to. Taken to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd, I know; but I am still of a mind that having as many bases covered as possible is a good thing - and the AR10 checks lots of boxes.


My 308 Fix weighs 6.2 lbs empty.

I think you need a lighter bolt gun and a 6.5 Grendel AR.

ILya

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http://www.darklordofoptics.com - www.darklordofoptics.com
https://rumble.com/c/DLO - Rumble Video Channel


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 14:20
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


This forum has no pot stirring emoticon.



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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/27/2018 at 15:12
Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:

A deer rifle with an AR strapped to it seems a little bulky... 


Yes, pretty bulky...except when hunting out of a fixed box blind, as I was doing all season. Since I was returning to the blind every day, I just left my guns inside the blind for as long as I was there camping on the property. That way, carrying nothing to and from the blind in the dark was decidedly un-bulky.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/28/2018 at 13:14
"Unbulky"?? 

I expected so much more from a TAMU alum...Big Grin


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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: January/28/2018 at 13:42
An unbulky 7 Winkle!💥

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/28/2018 at 15:01
I reserve the right to create my own words.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: January/28/2018 at 16:31
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I reserve the right to create my own words.



😂👍

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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: January/29/2018 at 14:13
Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 




Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:44
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.


...and bolt (bolt only, not carrier).

Dang, I was wondering why it would never fire or cycle. Big Smile

Good catch.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:47
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I have and hunt with one I built. To get it light cost some bucks. You might either consider buying one of the lighter off-the-shelf 16" variations. Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I went with the latter on an AR-15 platform build. With 130 gr Berger Hunter Classics it's good on antelope or deer out to 400+ yards and elk @ 200. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.

On a somewhat related note, if you have large hands consider the Ergo tactical deluxe grip. It really feels and controls much better for me.

Did you do Grendel or SPC? I looked at the Grendel option. 

Here is the thing. I have 308's already. I like the 6.5 creedmore. But don't want something that is 22 in barrel. I want it to be more compact. 

Mine's a 6.8 SPC. Either way would be good. One thing I dislike with .308 ARs is not having a forward assist. You (and hunting partners) will have to be comfortable with you carrying a chambered round...at least if you hunt mule deer or elk which seem to be able to hear a mouse pissing on cotton.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: HKtoTikka
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 05:40
6.5 Grendel gives just about as good as the 308 at longer distances due to a better BC.  The idea that 308 is superior for this purpose is getting debunked.  At shorter distances the 308 has more energy which is natural given the difference in bullet mass.  But do you need all that mass?  Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.  That should about covers anyone's energy and hitting requirements.

There is a 556/6.5G/7.62 chart in here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/6-5mm-grendel_010.jpg


This is a 6.5G vs 6.8 SPC discussion
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7716-Ballistics-charts&highlight=energy+chart


6.5G will give you more commonality of parts on the AR-15 chassis.


Ammo is scarcer, but getting better.  There are a ton of bullets out there with fantastic BC.  If you live near a Sportsmans Warehouse, there is a new line of Hornady called American Gunner they carry at a great price to give you brass for reloading.

If you want some interesting numbers, read the following thread.  There are some ballistic charts with other calibers.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15660-Why-I-Chose-to-Hunt-with-the-6-5-Grendel&highlight=energy+chart


I was thinking of slapping together a long distance 223 but instead decided to go Grendel after it was suggested here.  After researching for a while what I was finding is you get more fps, accuracy, energy and less drop and drift than the 223 and a log of other calibers.  You can get just as much fps and less drop and drift than a 308 and enough energy that it just doesnt matter. 

If the primary purpose is to kill things from 0-400 get the Grendel.  

And I already have an AR-10 TC.  No, I haven't assembled the Grendel yet, I'll update that thread when i do.






Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 10:17
IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 11:31
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 



One of my ARs is chambered for 458 SOCOM.  It is all sorts of fun and, I suspect, is not lacking lethality within its envelope.

I plan to put together a suppressed SOCOM for shooting subsonic 500gr bullets.  I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.

ILya


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Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 13:22
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.


I don't have a Bugatti Veyron.

Just saying...


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 14:04
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 

The debate is not that the Grendel is just as good for big game animals as a .308 in all circumstances. The argument centers around 2 things: long range trajectory for target shooting, where the Grendel hangs with the .308, and effectiveness on game at short range up to maybe 300 yards, typical for how you'd use an AR in the first place. This is of course a comparison involving some tradeoffs, primarily a lighter, handier rifle in exchange for a slightly smaller wound channel. I very much disagree that the difference between a Grendel and .308 is remotely the same as between the Grendel and the 5.56. This due to bullets available and penetration potential for bullets typically used within AR cartridge length constraints. The sectional density and construction, as well as penetration of 120 - 140 gr 6.5 bullets compares very favorably to 150 - 165 gr bullets in .30 caliber, as long as you have reasonably high enough velocity to cause them to expand properly, which you would at short range. A 125ish gr 6.5 bullet will behave pretty much the same as a 150 gr .30 cal bullet of similar construction in terms of penetration and tissue damage. What the latter gains in diameter and mass, the former gains in sectional density, so they produce similar wound channels. On the other hand, .22 cal is lacking in bullets truly suitable for big game. At around 300 yards and under where velocities are still high enough to create a good wound channel, there isn't any animal that walks that will know the difference between a .308 and a 6.5 anything. If the critter is too large and tough for a Grendel at that distance, it's likewise too large and tough for a .308 with 165s as well. Personally, neither would be close to my first choice for elk sized game, but if they were all I had, I wouldn't stay home. For that matter, I'd never choose an AR for elk hunting anyway, and what a given AR is chambered in is way down on the list of reasons why. 

So with all things considered, given the specific limitations on shot distance and the size of game you'd typically hunt with an AR to begin with, the question then becomes why carry around 2-3 lbs extra weight and a less handy gun if you don't have to?


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 15:17
For reference I was specifically replying to this comment
Quote Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.
  Also the energy numbers of a 223 vs 6.5 vs 308 are spread pretty even. 

I know your preferences for the 7mm and 6.5 calibers Ted, and for the most part I agree with you. I love the 6.5 caliber, it is easily my fave.   But 123 grain grendel going maybe 2500 fps vs a 180 grain (we are talking elk here none of this 150 grain crap Wink) .308 going 2600 are not going to hit the elk the same.  That's nearly a 3rd more mass hitting him.  If you get a perfect shot then sure they will both penetrate to the vitals.  But that is not that often.  I have been hunting elk for 20+ years and not very often do you get a shot of an elk standing still.  Elk are almost always on the move, and often quickly on the move.  So that perfect vital shot does not happen very often.  You often get the shoulder or have to take a quartering shot and need lots of penetration.  Elk are big powerful animals they are not like a deer.  The elk I have killed have all been spike bulls too, so little boys compared to a full grown cow or big bull.  Big bulls are crazy big.  I have been within 20 to 30 yards yards of two big bulls fighting and they are huge.  A grendel just isn't enough gun.  And I agree a .308 is not optimal for one of them either, but its a lot better than a 6.5 grendel. 

Now it we get to 140+ grain bullets going 2600+ that would be better indeed.  But .30+ caliber (preferably magnums) are much better choices for those big boys.   FOr me I would absolutely carry the 2 extra lbs to hunt elk with the .308 vs a grendel.  No doubt about it. 

And, as you said for target shooting I would also pick the 6.5.  


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 17:52
I agree with most of what you said. However, keep in mind a couple things here...
The comparison centers around these chamberings in an AR platform. Therefore, in .308, that means 2.8” max OAL and typically a short barrel. That pretty much negates the advantages of using 180s in .308. If we’re talking about what’s optimal for elk, especially if humping it in the steep high country they call home, an AR of any persuasion is a suboptimal tool from a weight:performance standpoint.

Secondly, “energy” is probably the most overrated metric as a measure of lethality. It over emphasizes velocity, it doesn’t take into account bullet construction, and it is a poor predictor of tissue damage. It’s amazing how much less “energy” is required the closer you get to vital organs and shoulders holding critters upright. Other than providing impressive sounding ft/lb numbers on paper, it has little value.

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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:13
Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha
Even us high land elk hunters do that often. Mountain rifles are more of a modern option. My 7mag BAR with scope fully loaded weights around 11.5lbs. I do prefer a light rifle, but have no issues hunting with and 11+ lb one. My tikka with suppressor weights near 11.5 as well. I hiked around for 3 days near 8 hours each this deer season with that tikka. I was just fine.

Also my reference to energy was simply staing the diff between 223, gendel and .308 are about equal spread. Nothing about shooting game specfically.

My 19” .308 will shoot 175s 2650. Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:35
I love my 16” 308 AR, but pull out the 300WM when I want to anchor it.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:12
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha

Lots of people voted for Obama too.Wink

It's not an issue of "can't," it's an issue of "don't want to," especially when you consider all the other gear you typically haul around with you. Since I have more than 1 or 2 rifles to choose from, I'm not forced to make such concessions.Big Grin


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:18
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

 Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.

Actually, given similarly constructed bullets, you'd be surprised how little penetration difference there would be. The 180 will slightly out-penetrate the 123. What the 180 gains in momentum from mass, it loses in larger frontal area creating more drag. Heavy for caliber bullets get the best penetration. A 123 is moderately heavy for 6.5mm dia. Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.


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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:53
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.


You had to go and bring actual terminal ballistics is into this. Fair enough, I shall bow out oh wise one as i can’t argue with that.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/30/2018 at 22:00
But my 30cal will create a larger permanat would channel. Thats has to count for something.

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/31/2018 at 06:24
I am not a ballistics expert, I am a decent shot and a fairly good hunter, so there is a bit of voodoo in my calculations. And that voodoo tends toward larger diameter bullets to make big holes and grenade bones.
I will own a Grendel soon, if only because you convinced me I need to shelve the 18” 223 mid-range gun for a little more power, that is how my inclinations tend: replace less powerful gun with more powerful gun.

To that end, the AR10 is going nowhere, but if anyone needs a DD 18” AR15 upper, I have one about to go into storage.

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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: jonoMT
Date Posted: January/31/2018 at 14:26
I think out of nine elk I've shot, including a large bull, with a .308 I only had one cow that took just a single shot to down. Another really gave me some trouble when I used the wrong bullet (a 175-gr FMJ) from accidentally picking up the wrong box of handloads to bring along. I had to track her for half a mile and then watch her still jump a fence after the second round penetrated right behind the shoulder. That left me deboning an elk while trespassing. All I can say to that, is if I'd gotten in trouble at least I didn't waste a game animal. I found that second round almost entirely intact right inside the opposite shoulder.

I've had much better results with Berger 165-gr Classic Hunters loaded to 2.8 OAL. But still those last three elk each took a second shot. In each case the initial shot was over 200 yards. I might hunt elk with the 6.8 SPC, but won't take a shot over 200. Now that I have the 8.5 lb fully loaded/scoped .308 AR why would I?

I don't mind some extra weight, but I do hate excessive barrel length. Suppressed, that rifle will end up being 21.5" on the front end and that's just about where my Tikka is. Any longer and you start hitting noisy twigs or can't get the rifle up as fast.


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Reaction time is a factor...


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/31/2018 at 16:48
A note for all the Sig 516/716 owners that hate that stubby front rail: the Lancer carbon fiber extended looks to be an awesome add-on.  Mine took 10 minutes to install, and another 2 to go back and lok-tite everything up.  It adds several inches to top and bottom, and adds an ounce or 2 - which is easy for me to justify.

I'm getting a Grendel, for sure, but the 308 AR will still be my go-to stalking gun.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/31/2018 at 17:43
Look up tromix .375 socom.  It has my interest. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: February/05/2018 at 11:46
I saw that. And I like it, but.... what I saw showed only abut 75 out there. 

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too. They make an AR10 in 7mm WSM? I mean dang. 

I do like the idea of the 458 socom for around where I hunt. Thick brush and what not. 

Ar10 wouldn't scare me for Elk, at least second shot would be quick. I watched a youtube of a girl shooting a bedded elk, I think with a 6.5 grendel, at fairly long range, and she had to shoot it about 5 times. 

But down here, it could be a good option too. 



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