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On shooting groups, and wankers

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Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Shooting
Forum Description: Techniques, tips, stories, general discussion, etc.
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=44860
Printed Date: October/17/2018 at 10:50
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Topic: On shooting groups, and wankers
Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Subject: On shooting groups, and wankers
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 13:39
If your version of a good range session is a pile of brass, a mountain of targets, and one picture of one 3-shot, 100-yard group - exclaiming how your 1/3MOA rifle can do it all day long, you, sir or madame, are a wanker.

We all need an occasional decompression shoot, call it lead therapy or group therapy or whatever; but few real marksmen do much documenting of these things. For me, the 3-shot group in photo form is much akin to a stupid kid getting 3 consecutive answers right in trivial pursuit: he might miss the next 20, but he’ll proclaim himself an intellectual god forevermore and always reference those 3.

In short, the 100 yard range session will tell you a little bit about your gun, your ammo, your trigger pull, your breathing control, your sight alignment and sight picture, and your natural point of aim; but not in 3 rounds. My 100-yard bench groups are usually 10-20 rounds, with the understanding there is limited value in the effort, in truth,

If you want to see how you are shooting, stretch out to 300 and beyond. At 300, minor variations in cheek weld and trigger pull become a factor and show up on papers. At 500 yards, your wind call starts to play a part, and a bad pull results in a deviation from the bull; these aren’t nearly as ego-affirming as the 100-yard efforts, but they will truly demonstrate your skill and the precision and accuracy of your rifle.

Beyond 700 yards, you are venturing where the pro’s spend their time. At 700+, a bad wind call is a miss, a jerked trigger is a miss, a rushed position is a miss; this is where marksmanship basics either shine - or don’t.

By all means, post your 3-shot groups, but don’t be offended when I ask you to print it and send it to me in paper form, so I can use it for a bit of personal hygiene. If you want to impress, let’s see 20 rounds, and not just the bull but the whole target, with no kestrel thrown “hap-hazardous” on the target, trying to cover a flier.

Marksmanship, like everything in life, takes time and effort. Shortcuts abound, which is why - at my usual public range - I see 20 guys at the 100 yard line and none at the 600.


If we want to shoot for groups, lets do it for real.



-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.



Replies:
Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 14:16

Supertool threw down a challenge back in 2012. 20 rounds inside of 2 inches squared at 200yds without stopping to let the rifle cool; just shoot sight and shoot at your pace. I took it since I was putting my slightly modified rifle against his custom rifle. These are my results. I couldn't meet his challenge, but I wasn't far off.



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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 14:27
I have since upgraded that challenge.  You must have missed it.  100 rounds in 2 inches at 400 yards.

Hahaha

Good shooting by the way.  Clap


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: JGRaider
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 14:51
Interesting to me why anyone would care what someone else does for a range session. 


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 15:50
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Interesting to me why anyone would care what someone else does for a range session. 

While agree with you about what someone else does at the range, I think the real issue of the topic is those who brag about how accurate their rifles are and how well they can shoot without any real proof.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 15:52
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I have since upgraded that challenge.  You must have missed it.  100 rounds in 2 inches at 400 yards.

Hahaha

Good shooting by the way.  Clap

Hmmm, sounds interesting. I can take all day, right?


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 16:04
Did you write the above essay or copy it from somewhere else, RC? The reason I ask is I don’t picture you as one who typically uses the word “wanker.”

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 16:51
Here is another fun challenge.  I used to do this, but have not for years.  Everytime you take your rifle to the range (if working with the same load).  Fire your cold bore shot at the same target each time, then take it down and save it for the next trip.  See what kind of group you get over 20 or 30 rounds.  I used to do it with my Lilja barreled .308.  That rifle was pretty consistent with the cold bore. 

I think this would be great for a hunting rifle, since most of the time your first shot is cold bore.  Can be very telling of a rifle.  Some rifles cold bore is really off a lot.  At long distances it can really affect your shot on a deer or yote.  My Lilja was always 1inch or so low and about 1/2 to the left of the next shot(s) from the warm bore.   


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Tip69
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 16:55
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Here is another fun challenge.  I used to do this, but have not for years.  Everytime you take your rifle to the range (if working with the same load).  Fire your cold bore shot at the same target each time, then take it down and save it for the next trip.  See what kind of group you get over 20 or 30 rounds.  I used to do it with my Lilja barreled .308.  That rifle was pretty consistent with the cold bore. 

I think this would be great for a hunting rifle, since most of the time your first shot is cold bore.  Can be very telling of a rifle.  Some rifles cold bore is really off a lot.  At long distances it can really affect your shot on a deer or yote.  My Lilja was always 1inch or so low and about 1/2 to the left of the next shot(s) from the warm bore.   

that would explain A LOT!!!! Ouch


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take em!


Posted By: Longhunter
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 16:59
If long range shooting is your game, power on.  But please don't deride someone else's fun.  We need all the interested shooters we can get.  A new shooter needs to be congratulated on his 4"  100 yard group, and encouraged (and taught) how to do much better.

I've shot skeet and trap for fun, birds and game to eat,  trophies to mount, and to keep my self-defense skills sharp. It's all been fun. 

Interestingly, a lightweight pistol or revolver will also show you your shooting faults REAL fast. 
And it won't take 20 or 100 rounds to do it.           


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 18:41
Last time I was at the range I shot a 10 shot, 8" 100yard group and I was pretty proud of myself. To each his own.

ILya

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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 20:50
Just because you were upside down with a bag over your head... so what...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/16/2018 at 22:32
Nothing that extreme. Just off hand.

ILya

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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 02:29
My experience has been that with a common hunting rifle you cannot (mostly) shoot a 3 shot clover or 5 shot clover grouping. I always blamed my own skills and kept on and on trying. When I did get that 3 shot clover I was mighty proud of myself. 
And this is were most shooters get stuck. Our ranges are filled every Saturday with 90% shooting at the 100yds range. They shoot and eagerly inspect, analyse and disect each grouping. 

Only after I got into a custom built rifle with all the tweaks did I realise that the rifle was the limiting factor for me and probably also for most shooters. A 3 shot or 5 shot clover at 100yds is a no brainer with a custom rifle. I never even shoot a 100yds any more.

But I do not look down at the 100yarders and the effort they put into their shooting. I was once there too.









Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 09:09
I am in no way looking down on shooters at the 100 yard line. This is where we tell new shooters to begin - if not 50 yards. It is where one gets a feel for the gear and begins to build a skill set. If, 10 years later, you are still shooting 3-shot groups so you can photograph it, therein is the wankerdom.

If you took offense at the first paragraph, you either didn’t read it well, or didn’t pay attention to the details, or you just wanted to find something about which to be offended.   The point - and maybe I should start including this for clarity - is that a 3-shot group does not a marksman make, nor an accurate/precise rifle make. I shoot many groups, for therapy, for skill honing and building; but I don’t post a group with a proclamation of my godhood. We’ve all seen just this happen. And it gets worse when someone wants to sell said rifle.

Posts abound online with claims of 1/3MOA or 1/4MOA rifles, almost always with a 3-shot group to “prove.”

When improving one’s marksmanship skills is the goal, the process is supremely different from that of simply wanting to impress someone with a trophy. You get better by shooting correctly, and often. And once you master 100 yards, moving to either greater distance or smaller target is how you continue to improve.

Some shooters only have a 100 yard range, I get that. Again, this isn’t meant to disparage the sport, quite the opposite, in fact. Shoot often, improve your skills, learn, stretch; which is why I encourage those accomplished at 100 yards to step over to the 300 yard range - and beyond - where the real work begins. The 100 yard range hides many of the marksmanship shortfalls - which is why so many enjoy it. If you don’t get a perfect trigger pull, you probably only pulled by 1/2 inch; at range, that bad pull translates to something very different, and far less acceptable.

As in life, it is all about comfort zones.

And Ted, after several years of losing sight of the Ozzy Man and his commentating, I have found him again. It impacts my vocabulary, much to my wife’s extreme displeasure. “Wanker” is just a great word.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/17/2018 at 10:07
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Here is another fun challenge.  I used to do this, but have not for years.  Everytime you take your rifle to the range (if working with the same load).  Fire your cold bore shot at the same target each time, then take it down and save it for the next trip.  See what kind of group you get over 20 or 30 rounds.  I used to do it with my Lilja barreled .308.  That rifle was pretty consistent with the cold bore. 

I think this would be great for a hunting rifle, since most of the time your first shot is cold bore.  Can be very telling of a rifle.  Some rifles cold bore is really off a lot.  At long distances it can really affect your shot on a deer or yote.  My Lilja was always 1inch or so low and about 1/2 to the left of the next shot(s) from the warm bore.   

If I wasn't so lazy this sounds like it would be a very informative test.
I shoot an AR10 SASS that will group about 1" at 100yds. No big deal, but what makes it a 1moa rifle is the first of 5 shots. The first shot is always about an inch away from the other four that went through the same hole. I'd be happy with that if the next 15 rounds continued to group like the first four, but they don't; they group about one MOA. Just makes me not like that rifle.
Maybe if I tried supertool's test, I find I have a sub MOA rifle on a cold bore shot, or not.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: 3_tens
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 12:25
Finding a place to shoot, where you can reach out past 100 yards is the bigger challenge anymore.
Ouch  Angry


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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.

Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 18:29
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Nothing that extreme. Just off hand.

ILya

I used to, every time I went to the range, shoot standing, kneeling, sitting, prone... offhand and with rests (of various types).  I've not done that in a while... it takes time.  I need to get back to it.  I've not shot a 50 round group in an age and haven't shot a 20 round group in a couple of years.  As the song says "there never seems to be enough time to do the things you wanna do... once you find them..."

There are times I'm happy with 3 round groups... there is a lot of information that can be gained from them. I'm really not much more impressed with 5 round groups.  I tend toward 10 round groups...and more... if I'm really testing myself, the rifle and the ammo.  It's not a one or the other thing... they all play together, every time one shoots.  
I set up a rifle for a friend a while back.  I was shooting 1/2 in or less 5 round groups dead center at 100 with it.  Kris could shoot decent groups, but was almost a full inch off center.  I helped him adjust the scope for him and he was hitting centers easily... Then I was over an inch off center... we just don't see things the same way.  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 18:31
I do most of my shooting prone and offhand with bench and some other field positions mixed in occasionally.  I did not grow up shooting, so off hand does not come naturally to me.

ILya


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http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 18:50
I fired my first 12ga shotgun when I was 5.  Knocked me down, but I got up and hit the target on the next shot (turkey shoot at the VFW club).  I hunted by myself when I was 8.  You shoulda been there, ILya... 

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 338LAPUASLAP
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 18:56
Getting to the range is the problem.

Hitting a static target is one thing at any distance.

Hitting a moving target or one under circumstances totally different.

Try hitting a golf ball at 200 yards with a 22lr while it is still moving. Or one of the super Uber targets at the box store that self heals while it is still moving. I do understand some ranges don't like that... If they have a plinking range a cambels soup can at 200 while it sways or try breaking the string on a weighted target. These are a few of my favorite things...

I do have a distain for 95% of the people at the range achieving said or forementioned targets.

Give me some old timers that have faced the service end of a rifle.

As far as groups. I hate to say it what was mentioned in the above post is most of what is seen at the range. I want to shoot with the guy that leaves when I get their. He is respectful and usually a 4am riser.

Who knows...

I understand the post.

I am afraid that is our society now.

Beating yourself is the best part of it to me. I don't need to practice for beating the other guy. NEVER Did as far as who can hit the X on paper One time for the other, but not now.


The ones thst are trying to compare who's is better or bigger or more accurate(wrong) precise. Well, you win.

As for me I want to be found with the KB's and RC's and the ST's and the BF's etc. Oh yeah and ILyas when the stuff goes down... Give me a warrior and leave the braggers. ILya I'll make sure you don't have to rely on your off hand...j/k

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No one


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 19:10
I bet you are one of those anal types who checks weight and dimensions of every bullet... sign me up, I want to be on your team...

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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Steelbenz
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 19:11


This is how I spend most of my time at the range, introducing new people to the sport. 


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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: May/18/2018 at 19:53
I want THIS:


I would seriously consider selling all my other guns if I could get this with my Ivey mount with the Hensoldt 6-24x72.  It's not just nostalgia... with the proper ammo, this truly IS the most accurate non-electrically fired rifle ever built.  I love this rifle. First time I ever picked it up, it FIT... never felt anything like it before or since.  

"I fear a cage...to stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”  I'm feeling caged these days... I feel the need... 


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: May/19/2018 at 13:09
I generally shoot 3-5 3 shot groups when checking my hunting rifles for the coming hunts. I sometimes post a couple of the groups here. But I don't wank about it.
I don't have a problem with most the folks that show up at the club for sighting in days, either. At least they are checking their guns for zero. There are a lot of people that don't bother. I also get a kick out of 30-30's with 4-12 scopes in high see through mounts.....maybe that is a Michigan thing


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Doug


Posted By: Peddler
Date Posted: May/19/2018 at 14:06
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

I generally shoot 3-5 3 shot groups when checking my hunting rifles for the coming hunts. I sometimes post a couple of the groups here. But I don't wank about it.
I don't have a problem with most the folks that show up at the club for sighting in days, either. At least they are checking their guns for zero. There are a lot of people that don't bother. I also get a kick out of 30-30's with 4-12 scopes in high see through mounts.....maybe that is a Michigan thing



Nope it’s “ Woodchuck “ redneck kinda thing.


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When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 07:21
RC not meaning to steal the thread/ or group.


This is some random pics from the 4H BB season. If you want to brush up or train your self to shoot and do it very cheap.. well you know how that work out cheap is relative. Try these 4 positions and do them as stated in the 4H  hand book http://www.georgia4h.org/safe/disciplines/bb.htm. prone, standing, sitting , kneeling @ 5 meters with a daisy 499 BB gun with the regulation sites and targets. Its like hitting the eraser end of a pencil at 5 meters. when you can do 10 of 10 then you will impress me. LOL.
Here is some pics. and yes THANK YOU TO SWFA and all of our sponsors. were able to pay for all the matches entry fees and was even able to help a few shooters who couldn't afford the guns be able to shoot. So... THANK YOU.....

a few pic's.

prone


sitting


standing


i was not able to make the match above as I had to work. it was there state match and one of the other coaches help my son. I also did not get the kneeling pic sent to me.
 here is a few randoms.

This was the prep for kneeling at another match. My son has the hoodie on. It was a tad cold


 This is prone practice and training him to use his trigger finger only and not roll the rifle.


one of his targets. he is improving each practice.



Then when you get a tad older..lol You can do 1000 yard shots off the back of a suburban when its 30 degrees and raining. 10 shots in 90 seconds and different ranges from 300 to 1000 on this one. I have the hat on. The guy in front of me Is Justin. he Owns spinners in Mich. he is a hell of a rifle builder.



I forgot to add the sponsor shirts and logos... the folks who pay the billis and help the ones who can't. this is the unsung hero in my books.





Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 08:45
Bigdaddy, you made my point much better than did I!

Practice is what it's about, improving one's skill set.  I am all for that, in its many forms.

Most who have chimed in on this will freely admit that they shoot to be a better shot.  The thread, in its intent, was to push those not in that category at least toward that category

Perhaps my problem is that I enjoy shooting more than I enjoy people. 

Especially the wankers.


-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Bigdaddy0381
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 09:32
I do agree when I hit the range for the load testing and just to get trigger time the mall snipers are everywhere with all the new aged stuff. none of them can answer a simple question. like, what twist dose that barrel have? or is it left twist or right?  I have also noticed ALL of them can shoot 1/4 MOA off bags front and rear. Have them move from that position and the gun starts to mess up and they can't even hit the back stop much less the target.Ouch



Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 09:51
Where I shoot we do a little club competition called the stalkers test:

2 x prone

2 x sitting (with twin sticks)

2 x kneeling (with sticks)

2 x standing (with sticks)

2 x sitting at the bench (free hand, this is used as a proxy for a high seat position)

Shot at 100 yds.

If you want to see where you are weak, this will show it up (Kneeling always gets me, the best technique is usually to put the sticks under the forend, 1 knee down, 1 knee up, elbow supported on 1 knee and butt on your heel. Sadly, I have ridiculously tight quads so cannot sit on my heels and my shots are a lottery).

Scrummy





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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 10:11
I can't let this thread die. I think there is a lot to be said here.

I didn't even touch a trigger this past weekend, which is very unusual for me. I had 2 3-gun matches I could have gone to, or I could have spent a relaxing morning shooting golf balls with a .22 until they were out of sight, but I had to much work to do. I also just didn't feel like shooting for some unknown reason (Shocked)
Ammo is expensive, even if you reload, and while just going through the motions of shooting doesn't hurt, the learning experience isn't as great, and the results could be discouraging.
Now after working my arse off, I may be more inclined to squeeze a trigger on a firearm next weekend instead of the trigger on a weed eater.




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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: BeltFed
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 10:38
Competition is a great motivator for practice.
When I was shooting the KCR assault rifle match, I would start practicing 2 months before the match. A lot of dry firing during the week combined with cardio training, and live on the weekend. I always did quite well. Same with pistol matches; dry fire and live fire practice usually yields better results than using the match for practice.


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A democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch. A republic is a well armed sheep disputing the results.
--Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 10:40
Very right BF, I'm not sure how many times I (dry) "shot" the light switch across my living / dining room in Geneva with my P226 but it was a lot!

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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: May/21/2018 at 11:07
Where I live dry fire is a little involved.  The way my house is situated, it is difficult to orient myself in a such a way that I am pointing in the safe direction and noone can see me.

Many years ago I had a negligent discharge inside my apartment, so I am a little paranoid.

I set-up a makeshift airgun range in the warehouse in my office, so I can practice with an air pistol.  There, I basically do Olympic-style ten meter shooting with a simple single shot airgun.  I use FAS 6004 which is inexpensive, quiet and very accurate.  This is mostly a trigger control drill, since I shoot this airgun single handed and from a different position that I sue for cetnerfires.  However, it is still good practice and at this stage my accuracy is about the same with either hand which I am pretty happy about. 

I might start shooting my air rifle there as well.  The distance is short, but I can always make a smaller target.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
The greatest obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: June/12/2018 at 16:39


This is at 50 yards, and I am dang proud of it. 1971 Marlin 30-30 with its stock lovliness trigger. And no lead sled either. 





Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: June/13/2018 at 07:30
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:



This is at 50 yards, and I am dang proud of it. 1971 Marlin 30-30 with its stock lovliness trigger. And no lead sled either. 




That'll do nicely! Now, go get some venison!


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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: Lockjaw
Date Posted: June/19/2018 at 09:29
I broke the scope last season, and it was gone most of hunting season. Leupold to their credit repaired free of charge, and I got it back, but haven't sighted in the gun. I can't be using my good ammo up, I think I only have a couple boxes left. I need to hunt for some more, because it loves that Hog Hammer. 

I wish I could get the trigger tuned on it. It's not great. 





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