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Rabbit hole - NXS, Toric, Leupy or Swaro?

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Category: Scopes
Forum Name: Rifle Scopes
Forum Description: Centerfire long gun scopes
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=45387
Printed Date: October/16/2019 at 12:03
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Topic: Rabbit hole - NXS, Toric, Leupy or Swaro?
Posted By: CrazyEddie
Subject: Rabbit hole - NXS, Toric, Leupy or Swaro?
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 09:39
My search for a scope has gone off on so many tangents, but all due to additional great information (including in large part posts on this forum, and reviews by Koshkin and others). By way of background, this is going to be put on a Cooper 25-06 used primarily for hunting, where low light is critical. Ranges are *typically* under 200 yards, but I'd like to spend/cry once and have this scope serve as a longer-range option when the opportunity presents itself (for that or other rifles).

I've currently narrowed my choices down to the following, in order of price, with some pros and cons.  These all fall within about a $250 price range.
  • Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x56 - relatively light (22oz) and least expensive
  • Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 - very light (16oz), but only one not illuminated
  • Toric 4-20x50 - very heavy but awesome reviews, and incredible CR
  • NF NXS 3.5-15x50 - heavy, but super durable
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.  FWIW, I'm leaning towards the Toric.



Replies:
Posted By: bugsNbows
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:30
I'd sacrifice the illumination and go light... Swaro. AAMOF, I had (and sold) a Cooper in 25-06. The first scope on it was a NXS. That thing wore my nabby azz out toting through the woods. A Swaro went on next.
Another option would be to find a Kahles KXi 3.5-10 x 50. I have one with the illuminated 4D dot. Awesome glass and not heavy (there aren't many 1" tubed illuminated scopes around). 


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If we're not suppose to eat animals...how come they're made of meat?
               Anomymous


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:33
If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya


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https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: Scrumbag
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:37
Get the Z5i...

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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:51
Originally posted by Scrumbag Scrumbag wrote:

Get the Z5i...

Doesn't exist in the US (not sure about Europe).  Here, Swarovski only illuminates Z6, Z8 and X5.

ILya


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Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:59
Swaro is coming out with a new z5

2.4-12x50

http://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/z5-2p4-12x50-c20050303/z5-2p4-12x50-brx-us-p5555551 - https://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/z5-2p4-12x50-c20050303/z5-2p4-12x50-brx-us-p5555551


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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:02
 Define how you hunt, please.  If this is a walk-about/stalker, your list is pretty wrong for the hunting type.  If it is a sit-in-a-stand-with-good-support, these are good options.

I had a 25-06 many years ago and have regretted selling it since I did.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:42
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Swaro is coming out with a new z5

2.4-12x50

http://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/z5-2p4-12x50-c20050303/z5-2p4-12x50-brx-us-p5555551 - https://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/z5-2p4-12x50-c20050303/z5-2p4-12x50-brx-us-p5555551

It will be a nice scope I am sure, but it is still not illuminated.

Given the advances in technology in the last several years, at this stage in the game, I would not buy a $1k or over hunting scope without reticle illumination (except in places where they do not allow it, obviously).

ILya


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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:45
Great advise. 👍

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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 12:41
 Slap an $8,000 Gen3+ clip-on in front of it and boom, problem: solved.

I specialize in problem solving via Rube Goldberg philosophy.

And I can make better recommendations if I know how you hunt.  For the record, I hunt, far too much, my wife would say, so this isn't coming from a place of academic inquiry.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 21:20
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 Define how you hunt, please.  If this is a walk-about/stalker, your list is pretty wrong for the hunting type.  If it is a sit-in-a-stand-with-good-support, these are good options.

I had a 25-06 many years ago and have regretted selling it since I did.

Good question - sorry to have neglected to give those details.  My current hunting is from a stand with support.  


Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 21:33
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya

Thanks for this suggestion, and for the Kahles. I'm not familiar with either (which isn't saying much).  My spreadsheet is getting more complicated - but part of the fun for me is the "hunt" for the right gear!  Based only on a cursory review of their site, it looks like the RGD is only 23oz, and I'm looking for the details about the dichroic reticles.  That option would have to add a lot of weight to come close to the NXS (30oz) or the Toric (34oz).

Glad to hear the positive thoughts on the 25-06.  I've still never shot it, and I bought it totally on a whim as a way to change things up from my 30-06.


Posted By: cyborg
Date Posted: January/15/2019 at 23:33
 25-06 is a fantastic round. Based on what you have listed, the Toric is a good option.  Schott glass and illuminated reticle. For low light though, and I hunt here in Ga as well. I would take Ilya's advice and look for a 56mm objective. Especially when you are hunting in a thick young Pine covered cut-over. It gets really dark in there during legal hours. I personally use many different scopes for the various purposes.(I'm kinda spoiled like that) but if I didn't have the money to spend more than 2000 dollars for the scope and rings etc, I would go with the Trijicon Accupower 4.5-30x56. I have one and love it. It doesn't have the Schott Glass, but it's a fantastic scope in the price range. It isn't light weight though. But for your purpose of potentially going to other applications and still can hunt. It's an option. 

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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other

An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects.

OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

Cyborg


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/16/2019 at 10:08
 If it is from a stand and with good support, it doesn't really matter that it is heavy.  That said, "heavy" isn't necessary.  And you will eventually be in the brush shooting it offhand, so keep weight as a factor, just not "the" factor.

Having owned several NSX series scopes (and still have one), I can say people don't buy Nightforce for low light performance - or glass quality in general.  They are very accurate and very repeatable, and durable.  For what you are doing, you don't really need a nightforce.

Last question (maybe): do you spin turrets or dope the reticle?  






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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/16/2019 at 12:49
Originally posted by CrazyEddie CrazyEddie wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya

Thanks for this suggestion, and for the Kahles. I'm not familiar with either (which isn't saying much).  My spreadsheet is getting more complicated - but part of the fun for me is the "hunt" for the right gear!  Based only on a cursory review of their site, it looks like the RGD is only 23oz, and I'm looking for the details about the dichroic reticles.  That option would have to add a lot of weight to come close to the NXS (30oz) or the Toric (34oz).

Glad to hear the positive thoughts on the 25-06.  I've still never shot it, and I bought it totally on a whim as a way to change things up from my 30-06.

Even without the dichroic reticle, Meopta's normal illumination control is very good.

ILya


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http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: cbm
Date Posted: January/17/2019 at 09:21

 They have some good deals on Swarovski's right now on the samplelist. I personally would lean toward the Z6 1.7-10X42 plex over the Z5 3-18x44 plex(or BRH). Swarovski really is all over the place on reticle thickness, with the Z5 having some of the thinnest. You can go on their website and look up every model with every reticle thickness. It changes a lot from model to model and even from different size scopes in the same model line(Z3, Z5, Z6,etc.).

 



Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 07:07
I received a price alert ($860) on the Leupold VX-5HD, and it was such a good deal, it made me wonder why no one recommended it.  I think I made a mistake.  I now see that the comparable (at least price-wise) model is the VX-6HD, so I've relisted the 4 scopes below, this time with the prices I've seen, in case there is additional input (and while I await the report on the Meostar).  Smile
  • Leupold VX-6HD 3-18x50 - $1301
  • Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 - $1230
  • Toric 4-20x50 - $1294
  • NF NXS 3.5-15x50 - $1344
Thanks!
Ed


Posted By: cbm
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 08:48
 Click on the SL on the top right of this forum page. The other day they had a Z5 3-18X44 for $999 and several Z6 1.7-10x42. If I remember right , there was a plex for $1299 or $1399 and a BRH for $1400 or so. They may have some of your other choices on there too. In the past, I have found their ratings to be better than expected.........so an A is basically new, a B is practically new, a C is about normal use.....at least that has been my experience. I was always pleasantly suprised at how good some of the B condition scopes were.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:25
 I don't do much with Leupold products, but I would find it difficult to believe their glass is anywhere near as good as Swaro Z5 or higher.

I have had great success with Swaro.
I have had great failure with Leupold.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:28
I own the Leupold VX5 and VX6.  They are both excellent scopes and the fire dot illumination system is superb.  Optically they are very good, but not quite as good as a Swaro z6.    But they are more than sufficient to get you well past legal shooting times.  The ZL dials are awesome IMO.  I am a huge fan of these scopes and for the money they offer a lot of scope. 

I sold my Z6 after I got the VX6.  Optically it was a bit better, but the ZL dials gave it so much more IMO.


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:53
Thank you cbm, Rancid and supercool for these additional insights.  I had looked at the Z6, but it seemed the comparable scopes were more than another $1k above the highest in the group (although I did see there are 3 Z6’s and 1 Z6i on the SL - thanks!).  Otherwise, I think that the Z5 is the only one in the group that isn’t illuminated, and several of the other posts were strongly in favor of illumination at this price point.  Rancid, I’m very interested in your Leupold failures - send me a PM if you are more comfortable sharing the details offline.< ="text/"> p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px 'Helvetica Neue'}


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 10:36
 Rancid makes his displeasure for Leupold very well known.  (which is fine, as we all have our like adn dislikes) But he has not used them in years so he has no experience with their current offerings.  So no disrespect intended Rancid.  But take his dislike of them with a grain of salt as it is not current with the scopes they have now.  I have hundreds and hundreds of rounds down range with my 5 and 6 and they are great scope.  Some ways I like them better than a Swaro others not as much. 

The comment they are not any where near optically.  They are.   The difference will be a few minutes in low light.  Maybe.   But if low light is everything, then those few minutes do indeed make a difference and it may be worth while spending the extra money.  For me, they get me well past legal shooting times so I am content.  Plus I can get two or 3 VX5s for the price of some Swaro's.  Just a preference thing. 

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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 11:47
 So, some stuff that might help and might be completely superfluous:

1.  ST is partially right, my feelings for Leupold are well established and have been discussed here and elsewhere.
2.  Though I do not often use their riflescopes, several fellow hunters do.  In the hunting season that just ended,  there were 2 failures, both were Leupold.  Having broken Leupolds in the past, I am probably more aware of their failures in my area, as the guys I hunt with know I am not a Loopy fan and offer anecdotes when they can.
2B. One failure was of the older scalloped-bottom hunter, not sure what model, and it stopped holding zero, as in range shots from a stable base were everywhere, with no turning of dials.  The other is one of the newest, on a beautiful custom 300WM, the elevation turret sheered off under far less force than I would have expected.
3.  I do not purchase Leupold, but I am sometimes forced to use them.  My experiences with Leupold that were crash-n-burn are indeed mostly ancient history, but I have seen failures with their scopes.  And I am sure I am sensitive to that reinforcing information.  That said, the guys that hunt Leupold scopes have been using them for years, this was just a weird year, and timely to this conversation.

So, all that considered, you should indeed take my Leupold input in the context of someone who like Ford and dislikes Chevy but drives a Toyota.


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 14:04
I should not have use the wordage Rancid has no experience.  As I have no idea what he has seen his buddies use and that he had played with some.  I should have stated he does not use/own them himself so he will not have the usage experience as some of us that own/use them often. 

My bad Rancid, I typed that in a hurry on my phone, and I really meant no offense on that.  Overall I agree the Swaro is a better scope mostly, especially if low light is critical.  But the VX5 and 6 are dandy's for the money.  Especially the VX5 IMO.  I still own a Z3 and i like it a lot. 


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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 14:06
Leupold's come a long ways since the days of the overpriced Var-x III's, etc. I'm impressed with the VX5 and 6 lines.


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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 15:02
 No offense was taken, but I wanted to be sure my comments were not taken within a context of "he has no idea what he is talking about", as I do, just not as much experience as many here.

My lack of experience in that regard is a choice, and is based on an abundance of bad experience back in the day.

I don't buy Jaguars because they used to be very unreliable, maybe they are rock solid now; but it is an old concept that betraying one's confidence leads to a lack of confidence.


Fool me once...


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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 15:27
I still have reservations with Leupold scopes, though I do believe they have made progress in recent years... depending less on older technology and design methodologies.  I still don't "depend" on a Leupold, but do own a couple.  I have a "hog scope" mounted right now, have spent a little time shooting with 4, 5, and 6 models.  They seem OK, but I'm still not completely convinced.  
I'm in RC's corner on Leupolds.  


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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 15:32
From that list the Nightforce would be my pick but I tend more toward tactical scopes.  But this doesnt look bad:

http://www.swfa.com/swarovski-3-5-18x50-x5i-30mm-riflescope-5.html - http://www.swfa.com/swarovski-3-5-18x50-x5i-30mm-riflescope-5.html

Swarovski 3.5-18x50 X5i 30mm Riflescope

Matte, Illuminated 4WX, 1/4 MOA, Side Focus

SWA79112
708026791123
Swarovski

Only 1 left

Regularly $2,799.00

$2,399.95



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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 16:35
Thanks for the additional feedback on the Leupold option.  Urimaginaryfrnd - the x5i does look good, but if I look at another $1k to the range, I've probably got to consider some other options.  Although it seems to me that I'm a masochist on this effort, at some point I will need/want to pull the trigger.  Smile


Posted By: cbm
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 16:55
After all of my experimenting , I personally feel like Schmidt and Bender makes the best scopes. The glass is as good as it gets. But the overall quality , smoothness of the power ring, positive click adjustments, etc, is the best IMO! I still have some Swarovski’s that I like a lot, but I think SB is the best. Their low light performance is awesome and the illuminated are super nice.

I just got a great deal on a 3-12x42 mil dot and put it on my Kimber 280 Ackley. I used to have a Cooper Excalibur 30-06, they are definitely shooters!! I hit some steel plates at 800 yrds with it. That’s the farthest I have ever shot.


Posted By: CrazyEddie
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 18:08
Originally posted by cbm cbm wrote:

After all of my experimenting , I personally feel like Schmidt and Bender makes the best scopes. The glass is as good as it gets. But the overall quality , smoothness of the power ring, positive click adjustments, etc, is the best IMO! I still have some Swarovski’s that I like a lot, but I think SB is the best. Their low light performance is awesome and the illuminated are super nice.

I just got a great deal on a 3-12x42 mil dot and put it on my Kimber 280 Ackley. I used to have a Cooper Excalibur 30-06, they are definitely shooters!! I hit some steel plates at 800 yrds with it. That’s the farthest I have ever shot.

Thanks cbm.  I looked through the S&B site and then did some price checks and I *think* that the comparable models are all materially more expensive, even on the SL - but I may have missed something (the naming conventions for the models is not straight forward - to me at least).


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 18:15
S&B is very pricey and considered on the heavy side to me but I spot and stalk hunt.

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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: cbm
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 18:38
They are a little heavy. But the 3-12x42 is 19 oz so not too bad, to me. And they are really good in low light for a 42mm.


Posted By: mike650
Date Posted: January/18/2019 at 18:42
I bet... and that’s the power range I would consider (with illumination) if I bought one.    

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Fish to Live, Live to Hunt


Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/19/2019 at 19:53
consider exit eye pupil size  objective divided by the power setting = exit eye pupil size in mm.
  • Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x56 -   bright at 8x and below in low light
  • Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 -           bright at 6x and below in low light
  • Toric 4-20x50 -                      bright at 7x and below in low light
  • NF NXS 3.5-15x50 -               bright at 7x and below in low light   ....Thumbs Up


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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger



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