Print Page | Close Window

Flyer shot mystery....

Printed From: OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc.
Category: Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition
Forum Name: Shooting
Forum Description: Techniques, tips, stories, general discussion, etc.
URL: http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=45740
Printed Date: August/09/2020 at 01:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Flyer shot mystery....
Posted By: 8shots
Subject: Flyer shot mystery....
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 02:54
Has anyone actually solved the flyer shot????

This weekend I was doing some load development out to 330 yds (300m).
Every three shot group had 2 close and one flyer. The flyer all went the same way 4 inches below the other two.

Google produces a million probable causes, but only one had an answer.

In my opinion it cannot have anything to do with the ammo and loading. It is impossible that 1 out of every three rounds were loaded differently.
It also has nothing to do with barrel heating up. It has nothing to do with the obvious stuff. It also has nothing to do with a 3 shot group versus a five shot or 10 shot group. One guy on a forum spoke of a 5 shot group of which one of the five was always a flyer. It is impossible that one out of every five rounds he loaded was different ie diff OAL, charge, seating depth etc etc. 

So it must be in the rifle setup. Maybe a bedding issue or torque issue???
 
The one guy that solved his problem of one flyer per group cut 2 inches off the front and recrowned. That solved his problem.

So anyone who had this problem and then solved it?

And before you ask, at this stage I do not know if it is the first, second or third shot producing the flyer.
This coming weekend I will have that answer.






Replies:
Posted By: Glock
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 05:07
7 duim agter die kolf Wouter 😂😂

-------------
Regards Chris


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 06:02
Originally posted by Glock Glock wrote:

7 duim agter die kolf Wouter 😂😂

Kan nie soos klokslag elke keer wees nie. Miskien nou en dan.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 08:30
I've taken the same rifle and ammo to the same range on a given day and shot very well; then taken the same rifle and ammo to the same range on a different day and shot terribly.

Whomever wrote the response above misused the word "impossible".

The greater the N, the easier it will be to answer the question. If I had to guess, I'd say you shot 2 or 3 strings of 3 and had fliers on each. Shoot 20 strings of 3 and see what happens.

And let us know.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:06
Rancid thank you for the response.

I shot 5 groups of 3 shots each and have the same flyer in the same place. 

However, other shooters have experienced the same issue, even on a 5 shot group.

Yes, one of the million possible solutions is a statistical matter.... shoot enough rounds and the flyer will get swallowed up in the overall grouping produced. Has anyone else done this?? Shot a flyer or two in a 3 shot grouping and then shot a 20 round grouping??

And I stand by the "impossible". It is impossible to produce 5 x 3 loads and have 1 in each of those 5 loads different from the other 2 in the same manner to produce the same flyer in the 5 groupings. Or as per the other guy who shoots a string of 5 shots with the same load and 1 of each five shots produce a flyer because it was not loaded the same as the other 4.

Maybe I am wrong, therefore if anyone has had this 1 flyer on a consistent basis and then found something to fix. So that after fixing the thing (loading, runout, barrel harmonics, damaged crown, shooting 20x5 shot groups etc) the flyer went away.

Rancid, I am posting this question because I do not want to shoot 20 x5 shot groupings. I was hoping someone else  has done this and has the answer.



Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:11
I really don't think it can be narrowed down to one thing that would be the same across the board.  One guy may find the solution for his 1 rifle, but his next rifle will likely be something completely different. 

In a case I had with one rifle years back, it would have a flyer every 6th round.  I had it skim bedded and with that rifle, it fixed the issue.   


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:22
Supertool I find your problem more plausible. In other words the rifle had an issue and not the rounds.

I maintain that you cannot load every 6th round different, or somehow pick out of the box with 50 rounds in it 5 good ones and the 6th a bad one every time. And then on the next firing again 5 good and 1 different.


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:22
So, to be clear: a 3-shot group results in 1 flier, and a 5-shot group results in 1 flier? Does a 10-shot group result in a few fliers?

Are you shooting a string complete or looking for bullet holes after every shot?

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:26
I also should have stated at 6 rounds it would start having the flyers.  If I kept it hot they would continue at or very near the new POI.  I have always liked shooting 10 shot groups just to test myself and found that issue with that rifle. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:50
I shot 5 strings of 3 shots each at 330 yds. At that distance I cannot see the bullet holes. So I do not know in what sequence they are.
Two bullets in each string would be close to one another and close to the aim point. (less then MOA stuff). In each separate group would be 1 flyer about 4 inches low and slightly to the right. 

The five shot group I am talking about is not me. It is from someone who posted on a seperate forum where he talks of a 5 shot group with one of the five being a flier. He was also looking for an answer. He shoots in competitions and the flyer is always there.

I picked this up whilst Googling my problem. The answers are stock items: 
Concentricity issues, wrong seating depth, to much of this to little of this, pulling the shot, poor concentration, inconsistent powder charge .... I can go on and on.
BUT everyone is guessing, no one is saying: I had that flyer problem too, and this is how I fixed it.

How can you load 4 good ones and one bad one every time you put 5 rounds in the mag?

So if it is because 3 rounds x 5 is not a high enough number to prove it is just a poor overall grouping, has someone shot enough bullets to get pass the flyer phenomena to prove the numbers game?


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 09:56
I have not shot more than 3 bullets at a time.
However the 5 similar groupings of 3 shots each is enough to convince me I have some issue.
I just do not know what.
I also believe it is not the rounds due to the consistency of 2 good 1 flyer, two good, 1 flyer..... It is also not the scope mounts. 




Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 10:40
How big is the barrel?  I have a browning 300 wsm with a pencil type barrel.  It will shoot 3 shots right near moa @100.  But 4 and 5 always opens up a bit, 1.5 to 2 moa @100.  I have never took the time to properly bed the rifle.  It was bedding by browning, but it looks pretty crappy to me.  Looks almost like a hot glue bedding job to me.  Just bedded at the action bolt points.  I dare bet if I bedded the whole action and down the barrel a couple inches it would help some more. 

But anyway, I have always attributed it to heat and that barrels gets pretty dang hot at 3 rounds.  4 and 5 it is to hot to touch.  But I let it cool down and 3 shots are again good.  4 and 5 it opens back up.  It is very consistant. 




-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Rancid Coolaid
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 10:40
My advice: shoot longer string. I like 10-shot strings, they really show where I fall down and what the gun/ammo can do.

And maybe try good factory ammo and get rid of that one variable.

In the end, I think you will find that:
1. More shooting will result in fewer fliers.
2. Most shooters that post extremely tight groups have cherry-picked from many groups.
3. A 1/2MOA group does not a 1/2MOA rifle make.
4. When you have 20 or 30 groups and still see the pattern, investigate further. Till then, shoot, and have fun.

For me, fliers are a part of shooting, they are the result of any number of factors, from gun to ammo to shooter to environment.

-------------
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.


Posted By: supertool73
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 10:54
Wouter, I would agree it is likely not the rounds.  With good loading techniques/consistencies at those short distances I doubt loading variations could be making that much difference and least those consistent of differences.  And I think you know what you are doing in that area. 

We don't really know anything about said rifle, but flyers from my experience and understanding that are happening consistently are typically heat related.  Meaning as that barrel heats up things move and pressure is changed.  That barrel expanding because of the heat will push on the action and stock and make things change.  A good bedding job with consistent torque settings is always a good place to start. 


-------------
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 17:31
Its as frustrating as trying to correct cold bore flyers. As always you need to eliminate as many variables as possible. One thing that tells on load issues is velocity. Any time there are flyer issues you need to watch velocity. A 30fps variable can cause flyers for several reasons (time of flight effects, harmonics ect). I have had results with factory rifles that had a loaded fore end by removing the load bump and free floating the barrel. Others had to be bedded or rebedded. I have watched some that I rebidded still have flyers just in a different place on the target. Another thing that can drive you nuts is the distance you are shooting. I don't put much stock in true accuracy at 100yds. Unless it is a set up that 100yds is the objective. Most of my rifles don't tighten up until 200yds. But that is one of my goals because I am focused on long range (1000yds +)accuracy. I have found better consistency by not having any bedding past the barrel lug. That can be one way of adjusting harmonics if nothing else seams to help. But if you start out with bedding past the lug you really don't know if harmonics is an issue. This is a topic I am constantly watching for anything I haven't tried. Another major issue is the shooter. We all have habits we are not aware of until we make effort to identify problems. I have found myself trying so hard "not'" to have a flyer I blow the group anyway. A lock down rest that has a recoil dampener on the butt "that does not allow shift" is needed to eliminate shooter form errors. Some rifles shoot best in a tight lock and others do best with just enough to keep it from jumping off the rest. That is another variable to be dealt with. For me 3 shot groups are for quick test make sure it is ready for an event. 5 shot groups tell more about what your rifle is doing in the stock or chassis. And help you know when you are being consistent in you shooting form.
Good info thread!! keep it hot!!
 
Salute!


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/24/2019 at 17:51
Something I forgot to mention before is trigger consistency. I have been a huge fan of Timney and still highly recommend Timney. But I have noticed the newer ones I have used are inconsistent in their break. Some as much as 8oz. Granted a clean crisp break will still give good consistent groups, the break weight variable needs to be watched. I can't stand any Remington trigger because there are so many issues to deal with. I know a few smiths that rebuild them with good results but I am not one of them. But to make the point, any trigger that breaks consistent is a major component in the elimination of flyers.
 
Salute!


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/25/2019 at 01:07
Thank you for all the info. I will try a few new tricks this week end and keep you informed.
As Sgt D is saying:
Yes I am shooting 3 round groups for quick basic info. I am well aware that this is basic info and that 5 or 10 shots are far more informative.




Posted By: Kickboxer
Date Posted: June/25/2019 at 20:49
IF I see flyers, I've found that changing guns (and calibers) usually fixes the problem... no issue.

Just kidding.  Interesting commentary, looking forward to your solution.


-------------
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/26/2019 at 02:23
I have also been advised that if you can find out which shot in the string is the flyer, just skip that one and move onto the next shot!


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/26/2019 at 06:18
I’ve found that if I fire all my groups at 10 yards, curiously the flyers seem to disappear.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: anweis
Date Posted: June/26/2019 at 06:58
I get what you describe usually for two reasons: 
1. The barrel is not foul enough. Even my best rifles need more than 10 shots to shoot well, sometimes 20.
2. My handloads have too much  or not enough powder.



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: June/26/2019 at 11:17
You need to figure out if it is always the same shot, i.e. shot #3 or of it can be any one of the three.

I have seen this stuff happen because the barrel got warmer and had an effect on the mating between the barrel and front of the receiver.

I have also seen this stuff be a shooter issue, which can also be remarkably consistent.

ILya


-------------
http://www.opticsthoughts.com - www.opticsthoughts.com
http://fb.me/DarkLordOfOptics - Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/ - Instagram


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/26/2019 at 11:57
That's the problem with making generalizations about "solving the mystery" of group flyers. It can be caused by any number of factors, and each marriage of barreled action, stock, optics, mounts, ammo, and shooter used can have its own unique issues that generate flyers entirely different from the next. You just have to drill down and isolate one variable at a time until you find out what the source of the problem is. Anything that is shifting position inconsistently in mating parts during the shot sequence will cause a flyer. Ammo that isn't well tuned to work with the rifle's natural frequency can cause flyers, even if the load itself is extremely consistent in velocity, OAL, and component dimensions from round to round and produces very low SD & ES. The barrel oscillates in kind of a sine wave during the shot. If bullets are exiting the muzzle during rapid changes of direction during that oscillation, you will have flyers, even if the load itself is very consistent. If the shooter has developed any bad habits in shooting form that occurs frequently, you will likely get repetitive flyers.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: 8shots
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 01:41
Rifledude, I agree with you that there are many reasons, real or imaginary, for a once off flyer.
However, the mystery is in a consistent flyer. One of our respected hunters also used a 300H&H for many years. He also wrote about the peculiar habit of his rifle to throw one in 5 shots.

Hence my original point: Has anyone experienced this and fixed it?

So if the majority says : yes we fixed it, it was x, y or z with the rifle, then I have a direction to take. Or if the majority said it was p, q or r with reloading, bullets etc it would point me in a different direction.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 08:59
My most common fix is to rebed (about 60%). Then about half of those that bedding didn't help only got results after changing the stock or chassis. The most desperate fix after all else failed was to take a half to an inch of the barrel and recrown. I've had two that nothing helped and would have rebarreled but the customer didn't want to go there.
Bedding is not simple but, after all the basics have been confirmed (clear free float, solid bed or V-block seat, everything is tightened properly) bedding is usually the most effective fix. Then you have the variable of "do I bed the length of the receiver or just the pillar bed. That is just a matter of preference.
But one thing I have learned is to have another competent marksman shoot the rifle to make sure it is not me or the customer. One I recently finished had me baffled. I fully expected it to shoot half moa or better but it just wouldn't. I went back over it point by point to see if I had anything out of spec. I had three people besides myself shoot it and the same result. About to the point of going to another barrel We let a sleeper new to the group shoot it and there it was. 1 3/4 group at 400yds (consistently). I realized that the three of us had gotten frustrated and were over controlling and fighting the rifle. He came in with no history of the rifle and shot lose grip, rifle laying on point and load the trigger. After that we all got good results with the rifle.
Getting frustrated I had let slip one of the things I stress repeatedly to those who I shoot with. If you have to torque or push the rifle to be on target you are fighting the rifle. Always do whatever you need to, to have the sights lay or rest on target. If you have to twist, push or pull the rifle then you are introducing heart beat, breathing and all kinds of negative effects into the shot. And with those negatives you will not know what the rifle is capable of. I have built my own shooting benches in the past to help determine what a rifle is doing. I am about to build another to better accomplish this having seen things that need to be changed.
A proper shooting bench needs to be heavy built, adjustable at the feet, have a swivel rifle seating platform with the forward rest right at or slightly rear of the barrel lug. With a taper box rest for the butt with a recoil dampener and the means to strap it down across the forward scope ring. The forward rest needs to be adjustable for elevation but has to be very sturdy and not shift or get loose after each shot. A modified Lead sled is a good possibility.


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 09:08
I’ve never had a rifle that produced a flyer that was consistently in the same location and distance relative to a typical shot group. Flyers I’ve experienced were always random in occurrence and dispersion.

The first thing I would try is to have another experienced shooter fire a series of groups and see if the same flyer tendencies occur, in the same general location and magnitude. Generally in any shooting, repetitive flyers in the same location away from groups are a result of the shooter’s interaction with the gun; periodic habits in shooting form that have developed subconsciously over time. Examples: inconsistencies in trigger contact and press, inconsistencies in grip, inconsistencies in breathing control as the shot breaks, inconsistencies in forend contact as the shot breaks. I’m not saying any of the above is the source of your flyers, just that consistent flyers are typically shooter-induced. Mechanically-induced flyers tend to be randomly dispersed.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: SEMO Shooter
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 10:53
I prefer to shoot dot drills instead of groups.  I am bad about pulling the last shot of a 5 shot group.  When I shoot dot drills that doesn't happen.


Posted By: Sgt. D
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 11:24
Discipline!!      Discipline was the thing! 
 


-------------
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!


Posted By: tejas
Date Posted: June/27/2019 at 12:06
I’d change my technique first, just to eliminate myself as the problem. Fire a few rounds to warm up and foul your barrel. As your shooting groups, move your rifle off the bag or rest after each shot and reset. That will force you to get your body and the rifle back into your preferred position, get your cheek weld back and so forth. Just sitting there firing groups may cause you to shift slightly from the recoil or unknowingly change positions. Just a thought. It’s something you can try to eliminate one possibly and it’s cheap or free. 



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net