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WSM’s

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Topic: WSM’s
Posted By: Trinidad
Subject: WSM’s
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 01:10



Replies:
Posted By: ranburr
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 02:10

Unless you need a shorter than normal rifle, I see no need.  Then again, I see no need for magnums in N.America.

 

ranburr



Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 02:41
If I want something with more pop than the stuff I typically shoot (280Rem, 308Win, 8mm Mauser, 7.63x54R, etc), it will also be a bigger bullet.

I never figured out the need for a 7mm or 30 cal bullet that goes 10% faster and kicks you 30% harder.  Then again, what do I really know about rifles?  I am more of an optics guy.

ILya


Posted By: Acenturian
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 06:58

Personally, I don't really see a need. If I need a magnum then I would just go get a full size magnum I can't see a reasons as to why I'd personally need a short rifle. Plus, some of the full size magnums are much more common then their short mag counter parts which means for the full size its easier to find ammo for.

 

Cool Idea I guess but no real benefit over a standard magnum.

 

AC



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If You're In A Fair Fight, You Didn't Plan It Properly

- Anonymous



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 07:47
okay guys this is where you take a back seat lesson from me for once!!! in theory a short and fat powder colum burns more consistantly, which in turn improves accuracy, the old 284 winchester was well ahead of its time, as it was some what designed the same way as today's short mag, but it died most likely because it wasnt called a magnum, are they worth it you bet they shoot better in speed and energy and with less powder than there long action counter-parts, so no its not a scam its really science

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 08:31

Excellent marketing strategy.  Introduce something new, emphasize the potential benefits, try to make us dissatisfied with what we have so we will buy the new product.  But hey, profits/sales are what keep companies in business.

 

I have no problem really with the new short magnums.  Anything that keeps people interested in guns, gear, and hunting is a good thing, but I won't be buying one anytime soon. My 30.06 does everything I could ask of it; ammo is available everwhere and on any given day it is capable of shooting with a higher degree of accuracy than I am capable of in most real hunting situations.  If I was a young guy starting out could see the appeal & might buy one. Fun to have new toys!

 

Great time to be a gun nut - so many choices out there.



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God save the Empire!


Posted By: SwattedOut
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 08:38
270 wsm has been devastaing on deer/hogs. Complete penetration so far and light recoil.


Posted By: ceylonc
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 08:48

I voted that one day I might give one a try.  However, I'm not looking to sell what I have now just to get one.  I think the only calibers that interest me are the 270WSM & 300WSM.  If I ever have the need to shoot a bear I may consider a 325WSM but the chances of ever going on such a hunt are so remote I'd be better off trying do decide what color Ferrari I'll be buying in 2007.

 

They really don't do anything "better" than many of the well established cartridges.  They are just a different way of accomplishing the same task.  Different strokes for different folks...



Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:24

pyro's right about the technology.  A short fat pwder column is the msot efficient and improves accuracy, in some guns some of the time.  That being said, the WSM's are not target calibers, like the PPC's (the WSSM's look like PPC's). 

 

None of them offer anything really new, other than the short case.  I bought a 270 WSM and sold it; didn't offer that much over my old 270 and didn't feed nearly as well.  I bought a 300 WSM, too.  It was a Kimber 8400; gorgeous rifle but too much recoil for me.  I could load it down to 30-06 levels, but why not just have a 30-06.

 

An extra 200 fps is really insignificant, especially at the cost of a lot more powder (read recoil and muzzle blast).  I agree with ranburr.  Don't need a magnum, they don't feed as well as similar calibers, and don't offer anything new.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:46

i hate to break it to you but this "guy" you talked about with his 270, must have  had a lemon, and as far as performance, the 270 wsm is more like a 270 weatherby than 270 win, so if you think your 270 can compete with a wsm your on glue they arent even close in performance, the wsm is faster flatter and hits harder sorry thats fact, now i do agree the 223 wssm isnt really worth it but thats another story. my 300 wsm will shot very close to 1/2moa with factory ammo and here pretty quick i am going to fire up my rock chucker and see if it will push inside of 1/2 moa



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 10:50
I bought a 270WSM and it shot fine, but velocity was not significantly improved over my old .270 and it didn't feed nearly as smoothly.  Yeah, you might get 150-200fps more but that's not significant ( 2" difference at 300yds; you and I can't shoot that good).  The short, fat powder column does improve accuracy slightly, but these are not target cartriges.  Bottom line, the WSM's are fine, but they don't offer anything new, and in some ways are inferior.  I don't need one.


Posted By: 4T570
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:03

R & D has to come up with new stuff, whether it is necessary or not.  I'll stick with .30-06 & .308's. 



Posted By: jsethmor
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:10

 

My Browning A-bolt in 25 wssm shoots best with 120 gr Winchester's, it will shoot consistantly .75" groups at 100 yards.  The only reason I bought it was because my friend needed money, and at $300 it was a good deal.  New it sold for $700.  It cracks me up to look at the cartridge because it so much smaller than a 25-06 but ballistically the same.  The only downfall I see to it is, because of the fat case the clip only holds 3 rounds.



Posted By: Urimaginaryfrnd
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:16

In comparing the 30 cal rifles I have  .308   30-06  300WM  and 300WSM.  The muzzle blast from the 300WSM is ferocious, it is quite accurate, but the loading data is not as flexable as the other three. It seems that the 300WSM is designed for a 180 grain bullet. All three of the others are more flexable. 

30-06 is the most flexibility in load data for many bullet weights.  New offerings in factory ammo run some .308 cartridges into the same performance range as the 30-06, but the 30-06 can still be loaded with much heavier bullets than a .308  . The 300 WM still seems to offer more than the 300WSM in that it performs well out past 1000 yds with the 190 grain SMK and you can get ammo world wide,  not as easily as .308 but it's been around long enough to find ammo many places that you likely would not find ammo for a 300WSM.  Ammo cost should also be a consideration as .308 and 30-06 ammo are much less expensive and if there isn't a true reason to make the jump to the magnums I would recommend against it. The one valid reason to jump up to the magnums is to keep the velocity above the speed of sound at 1000 yds as bullets tend to be more stable above the speed of sound, but not just everyone has a rifle that will do 1000 yd +  work. As for ease of reloading any of these seem to do well. One thing to note is that the extractor fit on a 300WSM is important and my Win Model 70 Coyote lite had to take a trip back to the factory to have the extractor fixed. Think I would rather have a SAKO extractor as this is a very large diameter case.



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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
Bobby Paul Doherty
Texas Ranger


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:37
in some case i can agree that the 300's are not flexible, but i have a special case, my 300 wm likes 180 gr bullets but i have also found through trial and error that its also a very capable varmint rifle, when i loaded a 125 grain bullet in it  i found the accuracy to be impressive so the next test was to shoot a coyote with it my partners were like dude your gonna blow the dog in half with that cannon and i had the same thoughts but at 300 yds .308 hole going in and .308 hole coming out!

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 12:12

Here are my observations:Noticed Improved accuracy to the standard magnums.Noticed reduced felt recoil to the standard magnums. Fast,flat,and smooth shooting. Cases are fatter so in alot of rifles you can only fit 3 rounds.

Short stroke and feed in a Pre 64 style M70 is fast and very reliable,I use a williams claw extractor(factory claw extractor worked fine but was made with inferior steel,wont take a chance). Drawbacks:price,availability,some will not like the limited grain load selection with some of the short mags. Opinion:Worth buying but only the origanal WSM's not the copycat knock offs(remmington comes to mind), well desighned cartriges for shure.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 12:16
the remington was a waste of development money, its 8-10% smaller than the wsm. imo remington should have stayed with the ultra's and just waited to chamber the wsm's in there own rifles later.i have wsm in an abolt and a wssm in a m70 and i dont have any issues with either action acting funky

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 13:30

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the remington was a waste of development money, its 8-10% smaller than the wsm. imo remington should have stayed with the ultra's and just waited to chamber the wsm's in there own rifles later.i have wsm in an abolt and a wssm in a m70 and i dont have any issues with either action acting funky

 

I definetly agree and would like to add that when a great inovation comes along there is always somebody(rem in this case) trying to take a piece of the pie but the lack in performance is clear.



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 17:40

One thing to keep in mind with the WSMs is that if you ever have a rifle originally chambered for a .308 cartridge family (.243, .260, 7-08, .308 etc.) short action rebarreled to a WSM round, you will probably have feeding problems, unless you or your gunsmith knows how to address the magazine rail and possibly feed ramp modifications.  The short fat case is just a little more fussy to get to feed properly than a longer, skinnier cased round.  This applies to custom barreled rifles converted from standard short actions only, not new rifles originally chambered in one of the short mags.

 

I have a rifle chambered for 7mm WSM, and I really like it.  like the WSM rounds overall, but they're a little controversial among some hardcore shooters due to the feeding problems in some actions, early reports of overly thick brass, reduced magazine capacity, loss of efficiency when using the heaviest bullets within a given caliber, and questionable performance advantage over their full-length magnum cousins.  If they're chambered in a good rifle and if you use good ammo or you handload, the short, fat case concept does provide potentially better accuracy.  I personally don't care for the WSSM cases though; I think they are a little too stubby, and therefore are difficult to adapt to actions not originally designed around the cases because of the feeding issues.



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Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 17:54

I have had a 243 in the past and I now have a 243 WSM, no comparison the WSM is far superior in every catagory

 

Duce 



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Duce


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 18:23
Originally posted by Duce Duce wrote:

I have had a 243 in the past and I now have a 243 WSM, no comparison the WSM is far superior in every catagory

 

Duce 

 

.243 wssm screams!!



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 18:49

Look at the long shots on http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.htm - http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.ht m   with a 200 WSM

on the above sights, could you push a 300 win mag 4200 fps? or hit ground hogs at 600 or 700 yards without a flat shooting load?

 

 

Duce



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Duce


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 18:55
according to lee's #2 manual you can push a 110 bullet out of the 300 wsm at 3700 fps, i know i could get my hands on some 90 grain bullets but i dont know if they would quite hit the 4200 mark, and actually yes i know people who use the 300 wsm for killing badger at 600 plus yds

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 18:58
I will build a 300wsm or the7mmwsm one day.i have shot each cal.
i worked up the loads for the man that has each weapons.
i loaded 150's sierra mk and 168 mk in the 7mm,the 300wsm i have only
tryed the 168 mk.both shoot 1/2 groups easy, thay are custom built
with a 5.5 contor tube.and compaired to the recoil on a 300 wm
mod. 70 that i had ,the 300wsm is does not kick as hard.i can put
more rounds down range. i love the 7mmwsm mild recoil i have not
had any problem feeding with the 300 or 7mm.but thay are not factory
rifles .i have a very good 308,a 220 swift that is custom,25-06
260 rem,and eather one will do the job on anything up to mule deer.
it's kinda like haveing that fast car,that will out run daylight,
you don't need it you just got to have it if you are
hunting elk,or any thing larger than white tail,mule deer,you should have
something with more punch,wheather it close range long range. but i am
not a ultra mag. fan.

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longbow308
Aim small Miss small


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 19:01


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 19:03

i have seen mule deer and elk both go down with a single 22-250, the 260 is enough for elk and deer, even at 300 yards i wouldn't be too worried about an elk running to far after a well placed shot.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 19:09

Oops that was supposed to be 300 WSM

 

Duce



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Duce


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 19:10


Posted By: seattlesetters
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 19:58
The only one that interests me is the .270 WSM.  I, too, feel that "magnums" are completely unnecessary for North American game.  But a flat-shooting little .277 caliber is awfully intriguing, since I've shot and killed more game with a .270 Wby Mag than all other rifle/cartridge combos combined.  Might have to get one!

I also applaud the .325 WSM...although I doubt I would ever own such a massive-recoiling blunderbuss.  I just think a popular 8mm cartridge is long overdue in this country.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 20:26
i wouldnt waste the money if you have a weatherby, unless you are intrested for collection reason, face it ballistics wise they are very close, i do disagree that some magnums are welcome, like the new 6.5 remington mag i just bought last week, its like a 270 but its shorter and is belted, but same performance, i bought 4 magnums  now in the last 10 years and with exception to the newest one have had great success with all three and there has only been one instance where i said okay this gun might be a little much, i shot a doe and a fawn (white-tails) when i shot the doe she dropped in her tracks and the fawn was standing in front of a small oak tree, i'd say 6-8 inch diameter and when the 300 wsm bullet came out of the fawn it hit that oak and tipped it right over, that was the only time i have went wow maybe this is a little much, but it is so much fun to hit a deer with that round and see it fall towards you instead of away from you has happened twice in 5 years now.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/12/2007 at 23:59
Pyro, I didn't talk to some guy, I sat on the bench next to him and we both used the same Chrony.
It's all marketing hype and even the "bought off" gun writers admit there are feeding issues and actual measured ballistics are not as advertised and dont justify  buying something new. Another fun comparision was my 1952 721 300 H&H (26" bbl") against a $3000 custom 21" mountain rifle in 300WSM. You can only guess which sent the bullet over the screens faster and shot the smaller groups. Yeah his weighed 2.5 pounds less... about what I save by carring a water filter rather than a canteen. if it's new it must be good.... remember the 225 win, the daisy caseless ammo, the 5mm Remington, the  222 magnum and on and on. I didn't buy a GM diesel rather than a Cummins and I'll stick with the ones that have worked for decades.


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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 00:08
No hype here.....


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 08:43
slim, you need to compare apples to apples, the barrel lengths on the two guns you mentioned are not the same so of course the results would show the up in favor of the H&H i'm not stupid, i know that longer barrel means more speed and better accuracy, and just because your old school stuck in your ways doesnt mean its wrong for everyone else who likes the wsm to think so

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 09:09
thats way i love the USA,

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longbow308
Aim small Miss small


Posted By: jackG
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 10:38

Okay, here's my take on this whole WSM question.  I didn't have a hunting rifle until a few months ago.  I borrowed one to hunt with last fall, a 7mm-08, and had a great time filling 3 tags.   After that I decided to get into it and purchased a Tikka T3 Lite in 270 WSM.   I wanted a little more punch.  Did I "need" that particular caliber?  Well, no.  I didn't "need" a rifle.  I don't even "need" to go hunting.  In fact none of us do.  We choose to.  As to feeding probems?   The rifle feeds like glass.  And as to holding only 3 rounds in the magazine?  This is not a gun fight in which the critters shoot back.  If we can't take care of business in a hunting situation, with 3 rounds, we're looking at some buck fever or a need for more range time.  One of the guys was shooting a Cooper single shot.  He only had one round!  He paid $1500 to get screwed on the rifle's magazine capacity.  If the mag capacity is a big issue, how can they sell Ruger No. 1s?  I will say this about my choice.  Since the Tikka 270 WSM is very light weight, the rifle kicks a bit, but hey, you don't get something for nothing.  It's no 7mm-08 in the recoil department, that's for sure!

 

My brothers, who both own .308s, one owns a 300 WM as well, and, both bought 300 WSMs.  The point being, that they've got several .30 caliber rifles. They used hand load 130 gr bullets in the WSMs,  at around 3500 fps for deer and pronghorn and they worked perfectly.  Dropped them nicely.  Did they need those?  No.  They could have killed the deer with a .22 rimfire if they could get close enough, or could have and often did kill them with almost all the other stuff they were shooting.  That hunting group's arsenal  included .338 WM,  7mm-08, .243, .243 WSSMs, which killed deer like a hammer, a 25 WSSM, .223,  .257 Roberts, .17 center fire, .204 Ruger, .22 mag, .22-250, a .44 mag carbine, 12 gauge 00 buckshot, as well as 270s, 300 WM, and 308s, one a Cooper custom.  That mountain of guns is owned among 6 guys.  We killed deer and pronghorn with most of those calibers, including the buck shot.  The owners made choices based on what they wanted to hunt with and all of them own and use standard length cartidges as well as short ones. 

 

The same arguments I'm seeing applied to the WSSMs could be applied to the .308 for example.  After all, we already had the 06 and it will do anything the 08 will do, in fact a little better.  Keeping with the anti-WSM sentiment, someone could say, "No one needs that .308!  Who cares if it's a fraction of inch shorter!  It's all plot I tell you!"  Same for the .270.  Who actually needs that thing?  "It's shoots flatter," to which we can say, "So use a lighter .30 bullet."  What about the 204 Ruger?  We've had the 22-250 for half a century or more.  All calibers and loads were new once, in fact they were almost all wildcats originally.  Some stick, some don't, and some get toppled by others coming along behind.   

 

As to the "marketing" hype claim?  That's what's called the "market."  And without the market we don't have squat.  Whether we're talking about fishing gear, clothing, food, scopes, hunting knives, cars, hair spray, cammo, Gore Tex, ammunition innovations,  or whatever, the market provides more goods and services of higher quality at lower cost to more customers (that's us) than any other system in the world.  Call it "hype" if you wish to be pejorative, but our quality of life is defined by it. 

 

The WSMs just give us the hunters and shooters more choices.   I can't fathom the animus.  Go through a super market and no two people have the same things in their shopping carts, right?  Does that require that one shopper start flipping crap on the next shopper's choices?  I can just hear it.  "What?  You bought chedder cheese?  I can't believe you fell for that.  We already have Swiss and Jack.   What a sucker!   You're just falling for the marketing, Madison Ave. hype.  That's what you get when it's ad guys instead of cheese guys running things.  It's a cabal."  Of course not.  Buy what you want and let others do the same without portraying the other shoppers as suckers or idiots and the vendor as an ogre and oppressor of the masses or some other silliness.   I love the WSMs as I love the whole inventory of available guns.   Would I own them all?  Of course not, not long or short, magnum or non-mag.  But, throw them on the pile and I've got more stuff to choose from.   For me, there's nothing much better than  that!  My 2 cents worth.



Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 13:12

 "have had a 243 in the past and I now have a 243 WSM, no comparison the WSM is far superior in every catagory"

 

Uh-oh!

 

The 243 WSSM tops out at 3050fps with a 100gr bullet.  My 243 Win tops out at 3000fps with the same bullet in the same barrel length.  That's an absolutely insignificant difference.  The old 243 feeds a whole lot more smoothly.  My Kimber 243 holds 5, the WSSM holds 3.  So, in which category is it "far superior" 



Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 13:35

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SBST243SS&cart=MjQzIFdTU00 - http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?sy mbol=SBST243SS&cart=MjQzIFdTU00 =

 

Try 4000 + fps with factory ammo a lot flater shooting with the 243 WSSM . I don`t have any feeding problems with my Browning and one in the chamber it holds 4

 

Duce



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Duce


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 13:37

Mwyates, I really like reading from you guys that have experience with comparing these calibers. I'll trust this more than the magazines any day as they will not bite the hand that feeds them. But getting back to SVD's initial question, I don't care. If these new calibers sell more guns and help the industry, I'm all for it. I have dozens of calibers from .22 up to .50. I will be buying more guns and there will probably not be one of the WSM's among them. One thing for sure, my .375 H&H and 7 mm RM will not be replaced by a shorter, longer or fatter case of the same caliber.

 



Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 13:56
It would be interesting to see how you feel about a 375 H & H after a day or prairie dog shooting and 300 or 400 rounds in one day. I bought my 243 WSSM for a purpose, a varmint rifle if I wanted to shoot heaver bullets I would go to a different rifle which I do.
 
Duce  


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Duce


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:02

Duce,

 

You're trying to compare a 55gr bullet to a 100gr.  Just doesn't fly.  The 243 Win will shoot a 55gr bullet right at 4000fps, too.

 

I'm not knocking the WSM's and WSSM's; they are all fine.  They just don't offer anything new, or better.



Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:09

tahqua,  I try to report what I've experienced.  I had a 223 WSSM for a little while.  It didn't take long for me to go back to my 22-250.  It wasn't quite as fast, but it was better in so many other ways.  Plus, the only caliber I have that I load to max is my .260 Rem, and only it because it shoots best that way.  New calibers are great and keep us interested and fuel discussions.  But if all we had was the 22 Hornet, 30-30, 30-06, 45-70, and 375 H&H, we wouldn't be missing a thing, and all those are over 100 years old, I think.

 

 



Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:22
I had a 243 Winchester first in a Winchester rifle, I never got past the range with it because I never could get good grouping with the lighter bullets. After much tinkering by myself and a gunsmith friend bedding etc. I stopped at changing barrels sold it and bought the Browning 243 WSSM it shot light bullets great out of the box with no tinkering so I am happy with it.
I really don`t care what others shoot so long as my rifle does the job that  I bought it for.
 
Duce


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Duce


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:34
"I really don`t care what others shoot so long as my rifle does the job that  I bought it for."
 
 
Amen!


Posted By: Dogger
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:50

Some really interesting dialogue on this topic!

 

jackG hit it right on as fas as I'm concerned.  For the vast majority of us buying a new rifle or shotgun is not a matter of need it's one of desire.  I already have far more firearms than I can reasonably use, but it sure doesn't stop me lusting after others to add to my collection.  I think some of the bias against the short magnums has to do with the rifles & calibres we have grown up with and through our experience that we know work well - I know I'm guilty of being a doubting Thomas whenever I read about the introduction of some new & improved cailbre.  Most of the younger guys (and some of the older ones) are not so firmly entrenched and are more eager to try the new stuff.

 

I still have and use a model 97 pump that works like new, but that didn't stop me buying a Browning BPS, or a Beretta Onyx as well.  Having all this choice is a good thing for our sport and those who buy the new stuff should be supported in their choices - is the new stuff really any better?  Probably not or marginally so, but who cares - buy it and keep shooting!



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God save the Empire!


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 14:54
Originally posted by Duce Duce wrote:

I had a 243 Winchester first in a Winchester rifle, I never got past the range with it because I never could get good grouping with the lighter bullets. After much tinkering by myself and a gunsmith friend bedding etc. I stopped at changing barrels sold it and bought the Browning 243 WSSM it shot light bullets great out of the box with no tinkering so I am happy with it.
I really don`t care what others shoot so long as my rifle does the job that  I bought it for.
 
Duce

That's why I didn't get a .375 H&H for varmints, but you might have something there



Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 15:21

I must say I am very surprised by some of the comments I have read here mostly from people who have never owned a WSM or just settle,

any way inspired by this post I set off with a mission and just got back from the range, I will load  a pic later tonight on this thread.



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 15:32
If you want one, buy one BUT don't try and make the case that it's superior to many existing cartridges. That's the marketing hype part. If you really think that a 300 WSM will kill anything deader, farther or faster than my several 50 + year old 300 H&Hs you are a victim of that hype. I won't even get into feeding issues and ammo availablity in far away places.

-------------
Vagisil Tester


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 16:02

"If you want one, buy one BUT don't try and make the case that it's superior to many existing cartridges. That's the marketing hype part. If you really think that a 300 WSM will kill anything deader, farther or faster than my several 50 + year old 300 H&Hs you are a victim of that hype. I won't even get into feeding issues and ammo availablity in far away places. "

 


Amen to that, too! 

 

A lot of you sprouts believe, as I did when I was a sprout, that the newest thing is the best thing.  Then, when you get some experience, you realize Daddy wasn't all that ignorant.  I've owned and shot WSM's and WSSM's and they are good, but there's no "need" to get rid of your old rifle.  I don't have any of them anymore, because they didn't do anything new and had some drawbacks (feeding, don't like long heavy bullets, harder to reload).  If you just want a new one, that's great; get all you have room for and can afford.  I'd urge you to try, just one time, making your new rifle a 300 Savage, or a 7X57, or a 220 Swift, or, heaven forbid, a 30-06.  You'll find there are very good reasons these guns are still the most popular.  It's not just because us old guys won't try anything new.  Sometimes  (actually, quite often) older is better.



Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 16:17

Bartlein Barrel on an UnderTaker stock by Richard's Custom Rifles

The barrel is a 30 Cal.; 15 twist 1.250" x 30"  chambered in .300wsm custom and

is shooting 2 3/4" groups at 710 yds. with Hornady Vmax 110 gr bullets at 4200fps.

Can you do this well with a  50 year old 300 H &H ??

Duce

 

 



-------------
Duce


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 16:38
Very nice custom target rifle there, Duce. This seems to be getting a little out of hand here and I think SVD really got a good one going. I have determined that I don't need or care about the WSM's and can do this without having used one. I don't base my opinion on the efficiency or accuracy of these cartridges, but on the fact they don't do anything more than what I already have.  If they do, it is marginal, and not a cost effective change for me. I also note that the .375 Ruger, or should it be HSM, could be thrown into this mix but this started with the WSM's. 


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 16:43
A 30 caliber 110 that is one hundred and ten right? that shoots that well. Amazing, I'll expect to see one at the 1000 yard matches this year. I imagine for what all the stuff on that bench cost I could buy a real 300 H&H from H&H.
I'm sure the editor of Rifle would love to do a story on what has to be the world's most accurate 30 caliber rifle ever made. I guess I cant figure out why all the 1000 yard match shooters are going to heavier (for caliber) weight bullets where as you appear to have found a new way. Do you have 50 10 shot groups like this you can show us? shot under various wind and mirage conditions? That would be most impressive. I doubt it would fit in my saddle scabbard (as the old 721 does). I'll have to see how fast it can push a 110 gr VMax although with a 1 in 10 it probably wont shoot as well. Betcha if I had that fancy stock, scope, rest and trigger I could outshoot you with 190 gr Sierra HPBTMs (it's called TWIST). Well I'll be watching my mailbox for that Rifle article with those witnessed tests of consistant 1/3 MOA groups at 700 yards from your wunderrifle.

mwyates is a breeze of fresh air among the believers in anything put out by marketing folks as the gospel. With Remington Classics out there in 300 savage and 8x57 there is an opportunity for the sprouts to find out that what worked still works.


-------------
Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 17:00

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.htm - http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/favoritevarmintrifles.ht m

Above is where you can buy the DVD and watch the shooting for 2 & 1/2 hours of real world conditions, I bought it and the picture is from the Bartlein barrels web site

http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/ - http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/

Hundreds of shots up to 900 + yards

After watching you may want to buy one (if you like flat shooting rifles) but he is back ordered about 4 mo

 

Duce 



-------------
Duce


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 17:13

Did I hear someone say Remington Classic. Mines a .375 H&H and there isn't a .375 WSM thank God  

But then, if there was one and it fit in an M7, I would gladly suffer the recoil to carry it all day in the thick stuff. A 61/2 lb rifle with 4000 ft/lbs of ME, oh yea.

Damn, can I change my vote SVD .



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 17:16
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Did I hear someone say Remington Classic. Mines a .375 H&H and there isn't a .375 WSM thank God  

But then, if there was one and it fit in an M7, I would gladly suffer the recoil to carry it all day in the thick stuff. A 61/2 lb rifle with 4000 ft/lbs of ME, oh yea.

Damn, can I change my vote SVD .

 

the reason they dont have a wsm bigger than 325  and i dont like the 325 its a zero imo, is the performance increase cannot be achieved after the 300 range, the 300 squeezes the most performance that can be squeezed out of this configuration, the 325 was only made cause people wanted something bigger than the 300, but didnt want to buy a .338 which doesnt make sense.



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 17:25

Your probably right, though the .350 Rem Mag gets pretty good performance out of a short case. The thought of a carbine that would be as obnoxious to shoot as my Freedom Arms .454 just had me going. So back to the real world. For me the WSM's don't fulfill a need, unless someone else is buying .



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/13/2007 at 23:26
i actually just obtained your formentioned .350 rem magnums little bro the 6.5 remington mag and its in a shorter rifle the 673 guide rifle but i have read the .350 isnt near as accurate and i cant comfirm it but today i took my new 6.5 out for the first time topped with my new monarch and was very pleased with the accuracy with factory ammo and also the mild recoil it produced was very comparable to my 25wssm

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: seattlesetters
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:02
Rootmanslim is so right.  There will never be any cartridge that is clearly "superior" to the 6.5x55, .270, 7x57, .30-06 or 8x57.  No cartridge will ever have the chance to kill as much game on as many continents as those have. 

With all the different cartridges around, they'll never be one popular enough, and the game laws in Africa no longer allow the use of anything smaller than .375, so smaller rounds will never get the chance to kill elephant and cape buffalo like these have.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:06

i hate to disagree but between the 270 and the 30-06 they have probably sold more than your other 3 put together



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: seattlesetters
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:48
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i hate to disagree but between the 270 and the 30-06 they have probably sold more than your other 3 put together



Maybe in this country...

And they don't have the worldwide record of the others...especially in Africa on dangerous game.


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:55
Sad to say there IS a new short 375. Ruger and Hornady have brought out what is really a 35 Newton necked up to 375. It made so (oh boy) it will fit in a 30-06 length action because we all know that 100s of hunters are killed every year by short stroking magnum actions. They claim the same ballistics as a 375 H&H and that's true IF you consider the anemic factory loads BUT in a modern action there is no contest. (My Sauer 90 375 H&H shoots 210 gr old Xs at 3000 fps with no drama at all). I'm sure every corner store in Botswana will have these in stock should you need some (along with all the WSMs & RSMs).And for those who thrive on admiration...trust me: the boys at the range are far more impressed when I lay out those beautiful banannas on the bench with the H&H headstamp than any sawed off SM or SSM. My latest one, a 244 H&H (100gr @ 3600fps) is a real crowd pleaser. It's only a rebbled 700 Classic ex 300 Weatherby but I did see a used 244 H&H Rigby Mauser at the H&H store in NYC.... something about 6 grand prevented it from going home with me.

kudos to seattlesetters.. there is one more I forgot: the 9.3x62 available in a real mauser of excellent quality in a dozen styles from CZ for around $5-600. Will do anything this new Ruger 375 will with a huge choice of factory or handloading. (all those germans in africa were no dummies!)


-------------
Vagisil Tester


Posted By: smithrjd
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:58

 I have read and looked at the ballistics tables for the new WSSM, WSM and Remington short magnums and while impressive they are not enough to make me want to replace guns I already own. A 110 grain bullet from a 30 cal not sure why I would need that, or what I would use it for. The 375 rule for Africa is not hard and fast, one exception is the 9.3X62, one round that does interest me. I have a 243, 6.5x55, 30.06, and a 300 H&H. Of these the 6.5x55 is my favorite, not for the ballistics, but because I can hit what I shoot at every time. For what ever reason that Sako and I are in sync, not that the other rifles are bad I just KNOW that if it is shot with the Sako it will go down. That to me is the most important, confidence in shot placement and performance on game.

 

Ron      



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:11
we live in the usa still last time i checked, i dont care whats popular else where

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:14
smithrjd: yup love that 6.5x55! if you handload you might wish to try the new 130 gr Barnes TSX. It is very accurate and the last adult buck antelope i shot with it at 275 yards, broke a shoulder on the way in and a hip on the way out. needless to say no f/u shot or tracking was required. SAKO & 6.5x55 that is a beautiful marriage! (I have a 96, 38 and R.F. Sedgley Springfield sporter in 6.5x55)

-------------
Vagisil Tester


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:19

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

smithrjd: yup love that 6.5x55! if you handload you might wish to try the new 130 gr Barnes TSX. It is very accurate and the last adult buck antelope i shot with it at 275 yards, broke a shoulder on the way in and a hip on the way out. needless to say no f/u shot or tracking was required. SAKO & 6.5x55 that is a beautiful marriage! (I have a 96, 38 and R.F. Sedgley Springfield sporter in 6.5x55)

 i recall you saying that people who shoot animals at long range instead of stalking them is a sniper not a hunter, looks like you are a poor example, i have never had to kill any animal past 100 yds



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: fishnpbr
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:44
I you were half the hunter/marksman you claim to be a different shot placement or angle would have ruined alot less quality table fare.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:48

Originally posted by fishnpbr fishnpbr wrote:

I you were half the hunter/marksman you claim to be a different shot placement or angle would have ruined alot less quality table fare.

ouch 



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 12:03
Well for those of you who do your hunting on OLN, fact is that wild animals do not always stand broadside at 100 yards with the sun at your back and no wind. I only take shots I am confident of and a Antelope standing, quartering toward me at that range when I'm shooting off sticks with my back against a hillside is not a great test of marksmenship. As to damaging meat... do you really want to get the Barnes debate going again? No blowup, no lead scattered thruout the meat, 100% weight renention and "eat up to the hole"

pyro I'm glad you are such a great stalker. When I hunted deep in upstate NY I never shot a deer past 75 yards (with a gun) or 25 yards (with a bow) but Antelope generally dont live in woods so its' a bit different. I have been traditional bow hunting them for years (that's with a non mechanical bow, wooden arrows, feathers and broadheads you sharpen your self) and never gotten within that 25 yard window (these are wild lopes not ranch baited waterhole ones)

I grew up shooting woodchucks back in NY starting in the 1950s with a 22 RF, then a hornet, a 222, a 243 and a 25-06 (when it was still a wildcat). If you can hit a chuck at 300 yards with a 25-06 with a B&L 6-24 on it, an Antelope at the same range with a 6.5x55 with a 4-16 S&B is not too difficult. That's 300 yards not 500 or more like some people were advocating shooting Elk at. (They do live in the woods a lot)


-------------
Vagisil Tester


Posted By: fishnpbr
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 12:42

I guess the Barnes TSX being the bullet of all bullets doesn't cause bone fragmentation, hydrostatic shock, or cavitation and renders all meat to the hole edible. that is on hell of a bullet


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 12:44
You can go to the Barnes website and get a free DVD that explains it all, compares to other premium bullets AND with 8th grade Englisg and cartoons so even the GameBox generation can understand it

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:46

..............................damit get a 06....................there is no need for flatter,faster,more accurate,less recoil......

 

7WSM,3 shots,100m, 6x S&B,160 gr NP,group size?????

 

I would like to thak the following that stood by my side for this effort....

Winchester

Nosler

TPS

Schmidt&Bender

Browning slings

Fellow OT members you are the best...

The OT what I believe to be the best forum on the net.

And last but not least to my Wife for letting me get some sleep.

 

Trinidad



Posted By: Duce
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:27

Great shooting with that 7 WSM , rootmanslim said he wanted an article on the gun I posted I did not find it but I did find an article on an earlier rifle that Richard Franklin of Richard` Custom Rifles

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html - WWW.6mmbr.com/gunweek042.html

Richard just builds benchrest and varmint rifles now , I am into the varmint type and I have had good experence with the WSM rifles

 

Great shooting

Duce



-------------
Duce


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 16:43
Thank you Duece,exellent posts you have put on this thread. Happy shooting.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:03

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

Well for those of you who do your hunting on OLN, fact is that wild animals do not always stand broadside at 100 yards with the sun at your back and no wind. I only take shots I am confident of and a Antelope standing, quartering toward me at that range when I'm shooting off sticks with my back against a hillside is not a great test of marksmenship. As to damaging meat... do you really want to get the Barnes debate going again? No blowup, no lead scattered thruout the meat, 100% weight renention and "eat up to the hole"

pyro I'm glad you are such a great stalker. When I hunted deep in upstate NY I never shot a deer past 75 yards (with a gun) or 25 yards (with a bow) but Antelope generally dont live in woods so its' a bit different. I have been traditional bow hunting them for years (that's with a non mechanical bow, wooden arrows, feathers and broadheads you sharpen your self) and never gotten within that 25 yard window (these are wild lopes not ranch baited waterhole ones)

I grew up shooting woodchucks back in NY starting in the 1950s with a 22 RF, then a hornet, a 222, a 243 and a 25-06 (when it was still a wildcat). If you can hit a chuck at 300 yards with a 25-06 with a B&L 6-24 on it, an Antelope at the same range with a 6.5x55 with a 4-16 S&B is not too difficult. That's 300 yards not 500 or more like some people were advocating shooting Elk at. (They do live in the woods a lot)

 

in case you forgot i was born and raised in the great state of wyoming i know where damn antelope live!!! and i also know that you have to take a great bit of patience and skill to stalk an antelope within bow range! and i am going to do you a couple better i used low wall and high wall win. in 22 k hornet, 218 bee 219 ack imp. zipper, 6mm-30-30 ack imp. for my varmints with weaver k4 leupold m8 12x m8 24x and a lyman 20x



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:12
MIGHTY FINE SHOOTEN THERE SVD.



-------------
longbow308
Aim small Miss small


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:17

Thank you very much longbow...



Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:31

Excellent shooting, SVD.

 

 

 



-------------
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:36
Looks like one shot from a 10mm to me, excellent shooting 


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 19:44
Thank you very much Cheaptrick and Tahqua...........


Posted By: Exoman
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:06
6.5 wsm ftw.


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:40

Originally posted by Exoman Exoman wrote:

6.5 wsm ftw.

Exoman,I do not unerstand this post.



Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:55

Originally posted by Exoman Exoman wrote:

6.5 wsm ftw.

wtf is ftw fwiw?



Posted By: Native
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:54
In the early 70's I bought a 8x57 Mauser from a Border Patrolman who needed some cash. After George Sprague at Mesa Sports in Yuma got done with it, I was set. Made late in the war in Oberndorf, but had excellent metal work and all numbers matched. Didn't really fit with late war production, but someone put quality into this one. With a Weaver K4-F it shoots like a dream. I have always reloaded for it to get the most. The stock George put on looks a lot like the Winchester Sporter III's stock.

I have never been disappointed, but I always wanted a Model 70 in CRF and when the end came I started saving my dimes. It took 6 months to get the cash together and then I had trouble finding a good wood to metal fit. When I finally found what I thought was a well built unit it was a Sporter III chambered in 300WSM. I knew about the lawsuit and still bought the gun. Bought a box of 150 gr Powerpoints and some Wipe-out at the same time. Cleaned her up and pulled the 8mm Bore Snake through the barrel and went to the range. Shot one shot at the bank and went home. Treated the barrel with Wipe-out and went back to the range the next weekend and shot one shot. You know the rest of the story. This went on for months and I have no idea how accuracy was out of the box. Didn't matter I had my Model 70.

After 10 shots I switched over to 2 shots between Wipe-out. I finally got through the box of 20 and called it good. The barrel has never had a metal rod down it. I use a piece of dowel rod and patch after the Wipe-out to check for blue. I finish with the Bore-Snake and then just before the next time I shoot I push a patch through with the dowel to dry her up.

Then I put a Weaver Grand Slam 3-10x40 on and went to the range. Wow she is sweet. Fit is very close to the 60 year old Mauser. Haven't started reloading yet. She does like the 180 gr Powerpoints more than the 150's. Am I happy? Yes. Would I do it different next time. Maybe. A stainless/synthetic might be better suited for the weather I hunt in in the NW.

Is it more than I need? Yes, but I can down load all the way to 30-30 with 150 gr and that will make for great range practice. Really plan to load 165 gr around 2800 fps. No feeding problems in any position. Just what you would expect from a CRF.


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 12:22

Originally posted by Native Native wrote:

In the early 70's I bought a 8x57 Mauser from a Border Patrolman who needed some cash. After George Sprague at Mesa Sports in Yuma got done with it, I was set. Made late in the war in Oberndorf, but had excellent metal work and all numbers matched. Didn't really fit with late war production, but someone put quality into this one. With a Weaver K4-F it shoots like a dream. I have always reloaded for it to get the most. The stock George put on looks a lot like the Winchester Sporter III's stock.

I have never been disappointed, but I always wanted a Model 70 in CRF and when the end came I started saving my dimes. It took 6 months to get the cash together and then I had trouble finding a good wood to metal fit. When I finally found what I thought was a well built unit it was a Sporter III chambered in 300WSM. I knew about the lawsuit and still bought the gun. Bought a box of 150 gr Powerpoints and some Wipe-out at the same time. Cleaned her up and pulled the 8mm Bore Snake through the barrel and went to the range. Shot one shot at the bank and went home. Treated the barrel with Wipe-out and went back to the range the next weekend and shot one shot. You know the rest of the story. This went on for months and I have no idea how accuracy was out of the box. Didn't matter I had my Model 70.

After 10 shots I switched over to 2 shots between Wipe-out. I finally got through the box of 20 and called it good. The barrel has never had a metal rod down it. I use a piece of dowel rod and patch after the Wipe-out to check for blue. I finish with the Bore-Snake and then just before the next time I shoot I push a patch through with the dowel to dry her up.

Then I put a Weaver Grand Slam 3-10x40 on and went to the range. Wow she is sweet. Fit is very close to the 60 year old Mauser. Haven't started reloading yet. She does like the 180 gr Powerpoints more than the 150's. Am I happy? Yes. Would I do it different next time. Maybe. A stainless/synthetic might be better suited for the weather I hunt in in the NW.

Is it more than I need? Yes, but I can down load all the way to 30-30 with 150 gr and that will make for great range practice. Really plan to load 165 gr around 2800 fps. No feeding problems in any position. Just what you would expect from a CRF.

 

Great post Native, I truly feel your passion for the sport and great quality rifles with this post. I wish you the best of luck with all your shooting.



Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:16

Hey, that's some great shooting, SVD!!!  You obviously have your rifle and load combination dialed-in, and groups like that don't happen without some pretty good bench technique and trigger control as well!

 

The 7 and .300WSMs have recently started seeing use in 1000 yd benchrest competition, so with the right loads in the right rifle, the case design can be an advantage to achievable accuracy.  The feeding issues are really an issue if you are rebarreling an action to one of the WSMs, not generally with a new rifle already chambered for one.  Fat, stubby cases present a feeding problem if the feed rails, ramp, and magazine weren't originally designed around the cases.  In real world hunting conditions, they don't really provide an advantage over existing cartridges, except maybe help you shave a few additional ounces off a rifle's weight due to the short action, which by itself doesn't mean much.  I see them as a viable choice for someone who's looking for an elk-class rifle, doesn't already have another rifle for that purpose, and who handlods. 

 

...or, like me, who just wanted another rifle in a new chambering!



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:22
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Hey, that's some great shooting, SVD!!!  You obviously have your rifle and load combination dialed-in, and groups like that don't happen without some pretty good bench technique and trigger control as well!

 

The 7 and .300WSMs have recently started seeing use in 1000 yd benchrest competition, so with the right loads in the right rifle, the case design can be an advantage to achievable accuracy.  The feeding issues are really an issue if you are rebarreling an action to one of the WSMs, not generally with a new rifle already chambered for one.  Fat, stubby cases present a feeding problem if the feed rails, ramp, and magazine weren't originally designed around the cases.  In real world hunting conditions, they don't really provide an advantage over existing cartridges, except maybe help you shave a few additional ounces off a rifle's weight due to the short action, which by itself doesn't mean much.  I see them as a viable choice for someone who's looking for an elk-class rifle, doesn't already have another rifle for that purpose, and who handlods. 

 

...or, like me, who just wanted another rifle in a new chambering!

 

amen!!



-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:25

Thank you Rifledude when I was very young I bought a copy of the ultimate sniper by John Plaster and that book stayed by my side for almost a year at that time reading it in and out over and over again. I later discovered different tecniques doing resaerch and spending alot of time with former LE and Military friends and Gunsmiths. I must say

though that there is still a few gentlemen in there 70's that can outshoot me(scoped) and them with Iron sights.

One of the older gentemen got a similar group saturday with a custom M1 Garand and NM sights.



Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:43
Hi SVD, I shoot service rifle, was that Garand group from the bench? That is outstanding shooting, none the less. The smaller aperture on the NM sites help as would some trigger work. I have never seen an M1 group like that, ever..........WOW!  And you say "older", I am envious. If this fellow is wearing prescription lenses, can you give me a hint as to what he is wearing? I've just started shooting regularly again and I have tried two different glasses, progressive and bifocal with poor results. We can move this to another thread as this is way off your WSM question.


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:50

Hello Tahqua

 

His Garand is chambered in .308 and is totaly custom,I believe even his NM sights are modified.

He is a regular at my friends range, former Military and match shooter. He had two similar groups like the one I posted but not as tight(Iron sights though)jaust a little more slight deviation. He does not wear glasses but

he does hane some wierd type of glove and wrist support.



Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 14:01
Soory Tahqua, yes from a bench with a pivoting rifle rest. I use sand bags.


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/16/2007 at 22:59
Folks, get the new Handloader magazine. Last story is taking a brand new 30 cal bbl (set up in a serious bench rifle) and chambering it for 300 H&H and then whacking it off and chambering for 300 WSM. Differences were statistically insignifcant but the 300 H&H edged out the WSM. So much for the case shape issue...couldn't find 2 more different.
So if you like proven classics don't rush out to dump your 300 H&H (If you do PM me first) or if you like the latest toy the WSM works too ALSO  a great article on premium bullets with real side by side tests. No surprise to me that the Nosler Partitions and Barnes TSX were the "if there is any question" choice for large game.


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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/16/2007 at 23:59

Root you missed the serious bench rifle earlier in this post.A magazine(give me a break)? This is the OT.

 

Anyway getting back to serious matters since you own a 300H&H canyou help a new OT member with

mounting problems that has a 300h&H in a earler post.

 

Thank you'

Slim



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:03
SVD which thread? Thanks

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:12

Play nice boys, I own "2" 55  chevys, wouldnt trade either of them !  But then there is my new "wide body"  c-6 corvette,  08 or 06, long body or wide body,  who said you need to trade or sell off one or the other!  play with them all, load them all!!!!

 

               Check out the new .375  CHEY TAC

 

    Thank the man above for the  7MM  WSM, it out runs that old 300 long body every yard out to 1000yds

 

      and holds more energy to boot!!!                30



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30


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:13
I canot find it anymore slim, maybee the poster deleted it. Why do you believe what you read in magazines so much root?


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:19
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

Play nice boys, I own "2" 55  chevys, wouldnt trade either of them !  But then there is my new "wide body"  c-6 corvette,  08 or 06, long body or wide body,  who said you need to trade or sell off one or the other!  play with them all, load them all!!!!

 

               Check out the new .375  CHEY TAC

 

    Thank the man above for the  7MM  WSM, it out runs that old 300 long body every yard out to 1000yds

 

      and holds more energy to boot!!!                30

 

Hot 30, do you have expierience with the 7MM WSM? Can you please share it on this thread.



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:34

SVD, yes sir I do.  I buy the Savage 11FCNS, wich is built to remedy any and all feeding and extraction problems  then strip that ugly down.  refit with a bell&carlson medalist stock, and custom build my  own 5 round clip! (oops, dont tell savage)

  As far as horsepower goes, check FEDERAL data on 7mm wsm vrs. 300 win mag(the old mag) loaded with a 160gr in the 7mm, and a 162gr. in the win mag.

 

                 30



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30


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:45
Federal data shows the WSM smoking the standarrd 7MM mag with 160np. But what is your field observations? Mine are posted and a pic is included on page 8.


Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:46

SWFA HAS A GUN FORUM !!!  Pretty close to the top of the list too!!

 

                        HOT30



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30


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:49
Originally posted by hot30 hot30 wrote:

SWFA HAS A GUN FORUM !!!  Pretty close to the top of the list too!!

 

                        HOT30

 

What is this post about hot 30?



Posted By: hot30
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 01:10

SVD, I saw your post earlier.  Excellant!  I "0" at 200 yds, could 0 to 300 but lets not push it. I use BALLISTIC EXPLORER to load when i have time, use FEDERAL ballistic download for prelim stuff. at the muzzle were doin3200ftx3640lbs with a 160gr bullet.  At 1000yds were doin 1578ftx885lbs of left over knock down energy. we only dropped -23MOA at 1000yds!!!  Lets see a 30cal. factory load run with it?  I load with IMR 4350, FED mag match primer with Hornady, Nosler or Sierra bullets at 160gr.  The Savage barrel loves them all, the more copper in the bore the better "old ugly" shoots.

                                          30



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