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History 101 for our friends across the po

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Topic: History 101 for our friends across the po
Posted By: rootmanslim
Subject: History 101 for our friends across the po
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 13:52
Seems like our friend in Sweden is blaming the evil Jews for picking on the poor folks wearing the bomb belts. The socialist agenda taught in euro schools, echoed by euro press and politicans is all too clear to any observer. Just print out my post and save it for your children or grandchildren (or should I say "child"). Europe is broke, your unemployment and huge social programs will bankrupt your countries within 25 years and the influx of third and fourth world immigration combined with your negative birth rate will destroy your historical heritage. Ask the Persians, ask the Greeks, ask the Romans, ask the English. I imagine the Muslims will commit sucicide by shooting off a nuke in the USA in which case our "boomer" subs will reduce the Mid East to a glass parking lot BUT there's still those pesky Chinese to worry about. And BTW who makes the fighter aircraft that defend your country now? Not SAAB anymore I wager.
Hard to believe it's only been 60 years since Adolf killed himself but they have already forgotten.......
Special sale... french rifle scopes..never fired on a gun and only slightly marred by being dropped by fleeing troops

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Vagisil Tester



Replies:
Posted By: cheaptrick
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 17:05

Slim, why not take this to a PM with Technica?

After having come back from exile, your being a PITA AGAIN. 

 

You Sir, are the epitome of "The Ugly American".

 

Be ADVISED!

 

Your being "milled". 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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If at first you don't secede...try..try again.


Posted By: longbow308
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:35
that looks about 100 yards to me

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longbow308
Aim small Miss small


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 19:23
Isn't that a Remington, no way, he isn't close enough


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 19:37
It is here because he dared me to step out here with it.
It may take a while to read it but here is where he and all the other euro antisemites are coming from. You should be aware there is a world beyond rifle scopes. And no I am not of the Jewish faith in fact most of my GrandMother's relatives who stayed in Germany were loyal Nazis. Read it and learn AND think about what it would be like if this were considered acceptable behaviour in the USA.

Jews in Sweden are afraid to be known as Jews
By Amiram Barkat

Daniel Schechner, a 21-year-old law student from Stockholm, makes sure to conceal even the slightest hint of his Jewishness when he goes out in public.

When he says that he lives a double identity, he means that at work, school and in the street he would not voluntarily reveal his religion. He uses his non-Jewish last name, which he asks the reporter not to print. He does not dream of walking down the street while wearing a skullcap, Star of David or T-shirt with Hebrew on it, and when he went to Israel, he told people that he went to another country.

Schechner says that when he and his friends speak about "Jewish" subjects like synagogue or kashruth, they use code words. Nevertheless, the camouflage doesn't always provide perfect protection. Schechner relates that not long ago, when he was standing in a subway car, he was approached by someone who looked like a homeless person, who asked him about the "Jewish situation."

"What do you want from me? I'm a Swede," Schechner replied. The only response was: "Treat the Palestinians nicely." Says Schechner: "Then he muttered something about my having a Jewish nose."

Schechner, whose grandfather came to Sweden at the beginning of the 20th century, says that until three years ago, he was deeply rooted in Swedish society, but is not so sure anymore that Jews have a future in the country. "I have a hard time with the idea that there is anti-Semitism here," he says. "But I have an even harder time with the unwillingness that I feel from the Swedish establishment to deal with the roots of the hatred that is directed at the Jews living here."

An estimated 18,000 Jews live in Sweden. Some 5,500 of them are registered members of the Jewish community of Stockholm, 1,800 in the Goteborg community, and 1,200 in Malmo. The remainder does not belong to any community.

It is hard to see anti-Semitism in Sweden. A report by the EU's Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (the report which was at first shelved, and only publicized after a public outcry) mentions isolated cases of physical attacks on Jews. Study of the collection of reports for 2003 of Israel's Forum to Coordinate the Struggle Against Anti-Semitism shows that damage to Jewish property was also relatively slight - bottles throws at a synagogue or the daubing of swastikas in a Jewish cemetery.

Nevertheless, Jews living in Sweden says that they, their friends and a majority of the Jews that they know are taking extra precautions when they step out into the street. "Most of the crimes now being committed against Jews are impulsive," says researcher and member of the Jewish community, Mikael Tossavainen. "If people see a Jew they react, usually with verbal violence and on rare occasions physical assault, as well."

Anders Carlberg, president of the Jewish community of Goteborg, says that "when you arrive in a new and unfamiliar environment, you have to be cautious as regards your background; maybe there will be someone Muslim or from the extreme left." Carlberg says that Swedish Jews are seeing an old behavioral code that has reappeared. "The Jews only began to be proud of their Jewishness in the 1980s, at which time Swedish society went through a process of openness to multiculturalism," he says, "but things have changed in the past two years, and now a lot of people once again prefer not to be so up front about their Jewishness."

As Carlberg sees it, the modest number of physical attacks is evidence of the success of the low-profile policy, not an indication that the threat is not serious. "The fear of being attacked in the primary concern of Jews in Sweden today," he states. On the day after the conversation with Carlberg, his son and three of his friends were attacked in a restaurant in Malmo by a gang of Muslim youths, but were rescued without injury thanks to police intervention.

The Swedish secret services are the only organization in the country that conducts separate registration of incidents described as actions committed with an anti-Semitic background. In 2002, 131 incidents were recorded, but the vast majority was not directed against life and limb, but rather were expressed as threats, hate mail or minor property damage. The secret services do not divulge details about the identity of the suspects.

"I would not be surprised if it turned out that most of the attackers, maybe even 80 percent of them, were Muslims," says the president of the Stockholm Jewish community, Lena Posner-Koeroesi. Officials in the Swedish Jewish community emphasize that they consider only a small percentage of Sweden's 400,000 Muslim immigrants to be a threat.

Tossavainen says that the "risk groups" mainly comprise persons whose background includes one or more of the following traits: religious fanaticism, young age or country of origin in North Africa or elsewhere in the Arab world.

All of the appeals to government leaders in Sweden to take action against the phenomenon or at least to recognize its existence have as yet failed to produce any results. Politicians in the country are accustomed to treating anti-Semitism as part of a larger problem.

"Whenever officials here agree to do something about anti-Semitism, they always group it together with Islamophobia and homophobia," says Lena Posner-Koeroesi. "Personally, I'm not even clear on what Islamophobia is, and why it is different from ordinary xenophobia. But aside from that, I cannot understand this stubbornness to link the three phenomena together. In my opinion, each of these phenomena is unique and calls for a separate discussion."

"I'm not surprised that the Swedes are skeptical of the Jews' accusations," says Tossavainen. "They are simply disconnected from what is going on in the large Muslim communities in the suburbs." Last October, the Council Against Anti-Semitism in Sweden, a voluntary body set up in the `80s by former deputy prime minister Per Ahlmark, issued a report drafted by Tossavainen that surveyed anti-Semitism among Muslim immigrants, from a variety of angles.
Opposition to lessons on Holocaust

The report sparked numerous responses in the Swedish media, mainly about interviews that Tossavainen conducted with about 20 school teachers in Stockholm, Malmo and Goteborg. Most interviewees complained that they met opposition from some of their Muslim students when they tried to give lessons about Jewish or the Holocaust. "The teachers said that they had the impression that the children had absorbed their negative opinions of Jews at home, from other family members, or from watching Muslim media," says Tossavainen. He says he was surprised by the objections to the report voiced by Muslim public figures, most of whom admitted that there was a problem.

Some public figures, he says, justified the hatred of Jews. They were native Swedes. On October 20, the well thought of Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter ran an article by an Islamic studies scholar named Jan Samuelsson, who wrote that there was no reason to expect the Arabs to stop hating the Jews so long as the latter are occupying their lands. "Muslims who seek to take out their frustrations on Israel are met with understanding in Swedish society," says Carlberg. "The message they get here is

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 20:12
Rootmanslim, your initial post was pretty aggressive. I have been to the Campus Watch site and you have posted an article from there. The question I have is how did this all get started. Was it on one of our forums here at OT? This is a very serious subject and Barkat's article does provoke thought. If this is to continue, though, some of the rhetoric needs to tone down from your first post. There's room for everyone here and I hope they are heard from.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 20:47
wow this is a little deeper than windage and elevation!!

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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 21:01
We might need a 180 moa rail. 


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 21:40

I have to agree with root here, as I know other prominent member would, BUT...

This ain't the place.  Maybe we need a new rule of engaggement; no religion and politics only as it relates to guns, optics, and shooting.



Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 21:46
root-whats your point-it's not a perfect world? or that people in euro have no idea what shooting is llike in the US?-no one here needs a lecture-180 MOA hell need a bullsh*t rail.


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:22
i agree with Dale all of this is bullsh*t on this great forum.


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:26
It got started because our friend from Sweden was attacking the jews for picking on the ragheads, saying that the USA was the cause of all middle east problems and some other crap that is typical of the euro assh----s who have depended on us, our blood and treasure to bail them out of stupidity.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:27
Sorry Dale, I thought 180 moa was a rail.  You guys who shoot tactical and other tack drivers know more than me. Mike is right, this needs to go away pronto. I would hate for this site to look like some of the others out there. Almost Anything Goes needs to stay, though.
" have to agree with root here, as I know other prominent member would, BUT..."
Can't imagine what is going on with "you know who" but this road is bad and I feel bad. OT is fun and this is NOT!
+1 SVD


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:32
" our friend from Sweden was attacking the jews for picking on the ragheads, saying that the USA was the cause of all middle east problems and some other crap that is typical of the euro assh----s who have depended on us, our blood and treasure to bail them out of stupidity." Rootmanslim



I have not seen this on any of the OT forums. If it is, where is the link? If this was a PM between you two, keep it there. Don't turn this site into an ugly place, there is enough of that else where.


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:38
Here is his exact quote from the SWARO Z6 post

"As a US citizen you should not complain about European polictics in the middle east.

US is activly trying their absolutely best do disstablize the whole world by supporting Israel regardless of how badly they behave and misstreat people. Regardless of what the wests thinks about muslems there is really no reason to jump on their throats as it's only leeds to desperate actions that serves noone.

There is not just ones fault in that conflict but the ways Israel are acting is clear that they were good pupils to "der Fuhrer".

So please clean in front of your own door before you complaint abouth others..."

Maybe you might think this is okay but my father fought the Germans while the Swedes and most other Euros knuckled under and happily packed up the death camp trains. Outside of handsome blond women of easy virtue, the 6.5x55 and the sauna, I'm not sure what Sweden has contributed to saving the world.
I'm sure when Iran gives the mullahs the bomb and they pop it off in Chicago the Swedish army (is there one??) will mobilize to help us rid the Middle East of these wackos.(Marching arm & arm with the French & Spanish)
There were lots of folks who thought Churchill and FDR were full of BS in 1938, SVD, in fact my old home town had a big American Nazi Bund group. Different enemy same wishfull thinkers here.We might not be a lucky this time around.....
AND FYI, euro dupes, it wasn't Jews who flew into the twin towers, pentagon and a PA field on 9/11.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:39
Could you find it tahqua????

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:49

Root I read what he said and I did not agree as I do not agree with some of the stuff you have posted.

Let it go, this site is to great to have political and religious views laced throughout some of the best

practical optics coversations ever posted online.



Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 22:56
Well, rootmanslim, I have enough going on without this one. I don't disagree but I come to OT to escape and enjoy the company of the optics enthusiasts here. This whole posting is negative and not in keeping with the good intentions of our hosts. This is Almost Anything Goes, in my book this one pushes "almost". 


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:02
SVD... what part of "everything else" did you miss?
This guy called me out, told me to come to this thread where he was gonna eat my lunch. If you don't wish to participate, you need not. But don't try the censorship route (again) on a thread specifically set aside for "anything goes". Maybe you can convince this anti-american, anti-semite to retract his views or are you willing to tolerate that type of crap because he can spout all the latest info on Swaros? "All that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to remain silent". When I went to school we learned words like that. Today they are no doubt banned because somebody's self esteem might be damaged. Not agreeing won't cut it. Outrage and telling him what he and those like him are is what is required.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: Trinidad
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:09

Root I do not tolerate his racist views or some of the racist views you have posted towards minorities in he US.

I have confonted you in the past but I did not know Hakan was like this, I have PM'ed him in the past and we

have shared exellent optics information. I will PM him again right now.



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:19
The difference is that his "criminals" are innocent... mine are the ones who want to kill us... ever hear of the Lackawanna 7 ??? Those guys who flew the planes got flight training here... remember??? You think I'm racist? Wait till they pop off a nuke in Chicago and President Hillary reopens the internment camps, I'll await seeing you on the protest line ranting about the suspension of their rights. Remember what the venerated Abe Lincoln did in our Civil War to preserve the Union ? (probably can't teach that either or the ACLU would sue) As one pundit said: "it's 1938 and nobody gets it" (and he worked for slick willie!) Scopes are fun but we are at war and it's gonna be a tough one to win.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:24

On Swaros, now there's something we can talk about here. I have much experience with their 7x42 porro prism binoculars and they are as clear as my Zeiss 7x42. A friend had his 3-9 scope break twice on two different hunts and I am know biased on a small sampling of their products. Call me a pin head, statistically speaking.

On anti-semites, I have no use for them, either, and I will pay more attention to postings around here.

On angry men stirring up sh*t, well..................talk about Lyman scopes or something.

 



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:37
Tahqua, if it's too hot in the "anything goes" thread then quietly close the door on the way out. Maybe a two or three month trip thru Europe in lieu of some new gun & scope would open your eyes to the dimension of the threat, the hatred toward America and the revived anti-semitism. There are millions of uneducated, young, unemployed Muslim youth in Europe who are ripe for explotation by the fanatics (does London bombing ring any bells?)France ADMITS to 14% Muslims which is probably about as accurate as our count of illegal Hispanics et al.Dig out that 15th century history book and read up on the Moorish invasion of Europe that was barely stopped by Ferdinand & Isabella (the folks who bankrolled Columbus). Almost lost it all then by war...now the Euros are gonna lose by being outbred. We live in interesting times.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:49

I have taken a month long trip through Europe, whoop dee doo. I have studied world history as an undergrad requirement and once again, whoop dee doo. Bottom line, most of your posts are angry. I don't agree with the Swaro posting and maybe it should not have been. Question, who pushed the button first............DOH!

 



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:59
So if no one had discovered the gassed Kurds and raised the point then it would have been okay cause nobody knew about it? Ditto the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans and ditto our Swedish friend and his belt bombers justifiers? Man how can you hear anything with your ears so full of sand? As to angry, you got it right.. I saw those people jumping out of the Towers and I don't intend to forget it until everyone of those fanatic bastards is dead.I'm a real hard ass when it comes to people who want to kill me and mine and if a few million have to die to stop it...so be it. As the Boomers T-Shirt says "24 away, it's Miller Time". More Pattons less Powells

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 01:04
anyone got a swedish patch we can send this trooper?





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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 06:42
That's a great picture


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:03
Our Swedish friend has started his own thread cause i guess it's too hot here. What follows is his posting EXACTLY as printed. I love the "some of my best friends are Jews" line. You may draw your own conclusions on how he would feel if Iran nuked the Jews.... Hint...do I hear dancing in the street?
Quote:

Highly unfortunatly have I been given a lot of opinions by a fellow member at this forum that not is mine, and I would therefor like to straighen out a few questions here.



In a previous discussion about Swarovski optics the whole europe was blamed by this fellow member for beeing pro muslim and very communistic.

My responce was that the US with it's unconditional support to Israel is making the world very unstable.

I have been blamed to be an antisemit and that is very uncorrect. It's very sad to see how some people at this forum seems to belive the opinions i have been given instead of them i have expressed.

I stand by my opinion that US and the state of Israel is making the world unstable by a faulty polictics in the middle east and I am going to explain that here.

But most importantly of all, I don't dislike jews at all.



That said there is to big human suffering in Palestine and by the muslims around and in Israel.

The way the State of Israel is treating those people is not nice and very many totally innocent people are suffering severely because of this.

I am neither a muslim and neither a jew, but regardless of that It's not very difficult to understand how i would react if US and united nations gave my land away to the turks and I was forced to leave my home. And I suppose that mostly of you would react the same way.



Now sixty years later numerous of harrasment against civilian non combatant muslims are commited everyday.

A big massacre in a muslim refugee camp was commited during the 80th with Israels prior primeminister Ariel Sharon as one of the prime responsible for this.



So regardless of one opions about jews, blacks, muslims or whatever, my only point is that you can't jump on their throats for a long time without counting on getting something back.

People grew up in those areas to with low possibilitys and constant harrasments from Israel and they grew up with a big hate, a big hate that I belive anyone in the same situation would feel.



The poor way the muslim community in those area is threated it would be more honest to say: we hate muslims and want to kill them all. That would be more honest than the current situation.

And to be honest the difference in how the state Israel is dealing with muslims is not very far from how Hitler threated Jews 60 years ago.



US is unconditionally supporting the state of Israel and this leeds to extreme hate in the muslim world everywhere, this leeds to difficult terrorsists actions everywhere, by muslims from all places in the world.

This way US is as hated as Israel.



If US not had supported Israel the way it does, the campaign in afganistand and Iraq would most likely been much easyer, and lot's of American lives would not have to be spent.



This is not the jews fault, but the polititians of the state of Israel and US.



When it comes to ww2, I am greatfull to the US for their involvement, espesially as my daddy was in the Danish resistance.



Hope this cleared som questions, and if you have more questions or ideas feel free to speak.

Rootmanslim does not have to say anything in this thread as I am never going to answer him anyway.

I think this whole case is dreadfull as I have never before experinced to get opinions that people belives that not is mine.

Enquote





Regards Technika

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:24

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

anyone got a swedish patch we can send this trooper?



 

This American has big shoulders, and I am thankful, but his sleeve isn't long enough for all the patches that could go there.



Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:28

root-thats just so special

interpretation =anything goes

narrowly interpretated guns,bad scopes,iron sites,reloading

broadly interpretated guns bad sopes,iron sites, reloading, handguns.

 



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:37
Dale, you gotta help me out. 18 years of formal education, 6 years of military service and 30 years in the world of work have not given me enough smarts to figure out your cryptic message.
the questions are easy:
1. Do you support the right of Israel to exist in peace
2. Should Iran have nukes and delivery systems to reach anywhere they want to (ditto North Korea)
3. Do you want the US to lose (ala VietNam) in Iraq
4. Who blew up the WTC, & Pentagon
and PLEASE don't answer the question with a question or rationalization such as "India has nukes why not iran" etc.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:40

"And to be honest the difference in how the state Israel is dealing with muslims is not very far from how Hitler threated Jews 60 years ago." , Technika.

Is Israel using slave labor, doing hiddeous experiments on human beings, and sending men, women and children to there death in gas chambers? Maybe you are far removed from the truth. I don't know much about northern Europe but I thought ugly Europeans weren't that far north.

We have ugly Americans that have compared Donald Rumsfeld to Hitler, too. These are more than extreme distortions of the truth but serious misconceptions about what is going on or has gone on in this world.

And, rootman, history does repeat itself. Evil may find a way to bare it's ugly head but I believe good will win. 

It is unfortunate that this has occurred at OT, but it was bound to happen with it's growth. So, fire away.

 



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:52
And to really make it sad THERE WAS a time when the some of the Swedish people did the right thing:

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943" title="1943 - 1943 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden" title="Sweden - Sweden received thousands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish" title="Jewish - Jewish immigrants from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark" title="Denmark - Denmark . With the dissolution of the Danish government in the summer of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943" title="1943 - 1943 , the German authorities had decided to deport the Danish Jewish population to concentration camps. However, the Danes successfully transported the vast majority to Sweden in an unprecendented http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews" title="Rescue of the Danish Jews - rescue effort . There, they were granted asylum, and taken in by Swedes. Many stayed in Sweden after the war. Sweden also received refugees from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland" title="Finland - Finland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway" title="Norway - Norway . This, as well as the protection of Sweden's own Jewish population, was made possible due to Sweden's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_country" title="Neutral country - neutrality .

Of course there were also Swedish SS units, iron & steel exports to Germany, free use of the rail system to fight the Brits in Norway. I'm sure none of this is in Swedish schoolbooks anymore than selling steel to Japan up to the eve of WW II or turning away the Jewish refugee ships is in ours.


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Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:57

I was going to ignore this but,...

 

"Maybe a two or three month trip thru Europe in lieu of some new gun & scope would open your eyes to the dimension of the threat, the hatred toward America and the revived anti-semitism."

 

I lived in Eastern Europe (specifically Poland) for two years.  Does that count?  I was never treated with anything but civility and respect.  I did not ever experience the kind of hatred toward America to which you refer. Certainly anti-Semitism exists as does bigotry toward blacks, gypsies, gays, etc., etc, but, it is no more prevelant than what can be found right here in the "land of the free and the home of the brave." I think you have been blinded by the very carefully selected pictures and articles that make it into today's leftist media.  They tend to be very provacative and yet, rather isolated. They do not generally represent the opinions of the European masses.  Propoganda does not a reality make.

 

This is not meant to minimize in any way the threat that exists to the world in general from Muslim extremists (or any number of other fanatical groups prone to violence - many of whom can be found right here within our own borders) but, one of the most important issues in fighting any "war" (as you have put it) is knowing who is the enemy.  Blind attacks at an entire continent, people, culture, etc., aren't representative of a winning strategy.

 

"I saw those people jumping out of the Towers and I don't intend to forget it until every one of those fanatic bastards is dead. I'm a real hard ass when it comes to people who want to kill me and mine and if a few million have to die to stop it...so be it."

 

Does this statement not suggest you to be the exact kind of fanatic you claim to want to destroy?  Perhaps you don't personally revere Mohammed but, you have taken the same stance that the most radical and violent individuals claiming him as their prophet.  (They do in fact, feel that the USA is the world's aggressor and so feel that they are retaliating against, not initiating the violence.) This kind of "kill 'em all" attitude represents an equal threat to "the American way of life" as does their world views.  I saw those people jump out of the towers as well and while my desire for the realization of equitable justice has burned strongly ever since, the event did not inspire any genocidal tendancies in my heart.

 

 

Blaming the Muslims, Jews, blacks, "Euros," Americans, and/or whoever you want for the world's ills is an intellectually dishonest cop-out for the need to address humanity's real issues.

 

 

 

 



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:25

 

wheres the hangun question?



Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:36
Poland is not France, Germany or the Scandis.Remember we & they won the cold war, hence a different attitude than the other Euros who have forgotten about being under the iron heel of a fanatics boot. I also doubt Poland is (yet) overrun with wacko Muslims like western europe. You sit back and address humanity's issues.... I'm sure the folks at Dachau, Saddams mass graves, Milosivich's mass graves and sitting in Israel waiting for the Mullahs to get the bomb will be heartened by your handwringing.
Evil must be confronted and destroyed and anyone naive enough to think America is the root cause of the world's evil is so #W^(!WC dumb that they should get a one way ticket to Iran or Syria.

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Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:38
Dale do you plan to explain yourself or are you just trying the theory that enough monkies sitting at enough typewriters will write the Bible?

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 14:39
Lucznik, are you Jewish?

I am guessing you are not.  I am and anywhere I go I refuse to hide it.  I've been to Poland.  I assure you that my experience was different from yours. 

Most of the employees (willing employees) at the concentration camps, such as guards and so on, were not German.  They were Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians.  After World War II, a lot of the surviving Polish Jews (there were two million Jews in Poland before the war) wanted to return home.  Polish government allowed only 2000 Jews whose jobs were directly related to Polish cultur, language, etc. to remain in Poland.  All others were thrown out.

ILya



Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 17:20

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Lucznik, are you Jewish?

 

No.


Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I am and anywhere I go I refuse to hide it.  I've been to Poland.  I assure you that my experience was different from yours. 

 

I don't doubt at all that your experiences were/are different.  Everyone's are.

 

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Most of the employees (willing employees) at the concentration camps, such as guards and so on, were not German.  They were Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians.  After World War II, a lot of the surviving Polish Jews (there were two million Jews in Poland before the war) wanted to return home.  Polish government allowed only 2000 Jews whose jobs were directly related to Polish cultur, language, etc. to remain in Poland.  All others were thrown out.

 

I don't intend to sound argumentative here (nor am I trying to justify the actions of any individual or group) but, I am wondering about your source of information for these claims.  I have studied WWII fairly extensively and I am not aware of any sources that can validate your claims. I do know that, despite being defeated very quickly, the Polish government (acting from Brittain) along with many, many soldiers and civilians alike were actively involved in anti-Nazi resistance efforts which included the formation and maintenance of an "underground railroad" that saved the lives of numerous people, Jews included. Speaking generally, the vast majority of Jews remaining in post-World War II Poland (actually Eastern Europe in general) made great efforts to escape to the West so as to gain the protection of the American/British controlled areas of Europe. A great many other people did so as well.  Mostly this was due to their desire to escape from Stalin's Communist Russia - which was feared at least as much as were Germany's Nazis and not without justification.

 

I don't doubt that there were Poles who participated in the perpetration of concentration camp attrocities.  However, so too were there numerous Jews who, to gain favor or some measure of perceived personal protection, also assisted the Nazis in rounding up and harming other Jews.  In both instances we are talking about the weakness of individuals, not cultures. 

 

It should also be understood that, although Jews did represent the majority of the victims of the concentration camps, Slavs (including the aforementioned Poles, Lithuanians, and Ukranians as well as Russians, Czechs, and etc.) gypsies, gays, blacks, and others were also widely represented on the lists of victims. They also were not up to the standard of the Nazi's aryan ideal.

 

None of this represents a decent reason to hate (and especially not to call for the genocide of) any group of people: not Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans (whether North or South), "Euros," Jews, Muslims, Slavs, gays, blacks, gypsies, the aged, the disabled, Christians, Budhists, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. Not even Mormons.

 

 

Now, have any of you noticed how much nicer the Bushnell Elite is when compared to anything Swarovski AND at less than 1/2 the price!!



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 17:58
I was not talking about the Polish government-in-exile.  The concentration camp personnel statistic was about "rank and file" Poles.  I do not recall a single Jew who volunteered to work in a concentration camp.  Poles, Ukranians and Lithuanians who worked there elected to do that.  No one forced them.  There you are talking about inmates who turned on their own trying to survive.  That's quite despicable in its own right, but not the same at all.  Yes, many Poles helped save the Jews, but they were a much celebrated exception rather than the rule.

It has become were non-PC to refer to anyone other than Hitler as quilty in the Holocaust.  Well, Hitler was popularly elected and widely supported by rank and file Germans.  Nazi armies were welcomed with open arms in Lithuania.  All over Europe, police census lists with Jewish names highlighted were politely forwarded over to the Germans, so that they would know who to arrest and send to the camps.

The Polish government's "Jewish policy" after WWII is a well-known fact.  Over the next two decades after the fall of Nazis Polish government quietly tried to continue cleansing the country of all Jews.  Apparently, 85% of Polish Jewry killed during the Holocaust was not quite enough.  However, Polish Jews were not allowed to immigrate to Europe or Russia.  After all Hitler wanted to make Europe essentially "judenfrei" and largely succeeded, so no one wanted to mess with success.  Polish jews were allowed to go to Israel only (presumably everyone hoped that Arab's would finish what Hitler started at that point).

If you go to Europe now, you will see Jewish cemeteries descrated and swastikas drawn on synagogues.  Jews can not openly wear a yarmolka out of fear for their lives.

Anyhow, before we go back to scopes, here is a link to a Wikipedia page on antisemitism in Poland.  I'de probably be harsher, but it is accurate enough:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Poland

ILya


Posted By: lucznik
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 18:42

Koshkin,

 

I think we are going to have to simply agree to disagree about the level of Polish culpability in these matters... at least until we are able to get together someday and discuss the issue in a more appropriate venue then an internet message board.

 

BTW, I also am not Polish - though I do speak the language fairly well.

 

 



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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 18:53
We can certainly agree to disagree.  However, that will not change a single thing about widespread Polish anti-semitism.  You can choose to ignore it or to be aware of it.  That does not change the fact that it is there.

Iranian president Ahmadinejad also says: "I have nothing against the Jews" whenever any western media is present, but do you believe him?  The fact that you did not notice anti-semitism in Poland is mainly a reflection of the fact that there are not a whole lot of Jews in Poland, nothing else.

ILya


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/15/2007 at 22:47
Koshkin has it right. If anyone read non revisionist history (I suppose that means you have to be 60 or so) you would find that almost all of Europe was and to a great extent is anti-semite. The notable exception in the war caused by the international jewish conspiracy (That's revisionist code for WW II) was Denmark. Any thinking student of history knows that we will wimp out on Iran and are hoping that Israel will handle the problem (as no one else has the balls). The UN with go nuts but they often do and it comes to nothing. Real-Politik would have the Chinese, Japan, Israel and us deciding what is going to happen in the Middle East and as capt picard would say "make it so". We're wimps so it won't and there's a fair chance the Muslims will get the bomb, use it and we'll enter a new dark age. My M-1 is clean and I have LOTS of 30 cal ball. Gotta go watch Red Dawn... a lousy movie but a basic plot that becomes more believable every day

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/16/2007 at 23:10
Jon joins the "ban them" list.(on Technika's thread)  Shame! Guys this thread is for mixing it up. If you dont want to, stick with the pure scope threads. What's next burning Elmer Keith's Big Game Rifles in the town square cause he thought the 270 was a Pogun and you happen to love O'Connor? I find this intolerence of others viewpoints from Americans almost as disturbing as Euros anti-semitism. Did you guys all attend school after they stopped teaching the Bill of Rights in favor of Ebonics for opressors? If you come to this thread expecting descriptions of viewing resolution charts....well you're in the wrong spot.

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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/16/2007 at 23:24
Rootmanslim, this forum is called "Almost, Anything Goes".  Pay attention to the word "Almost".  While the topic of the conversation may be found objectionable by some, noone would call for banning it.  Unless I am very wrong, the problem is not what you are saying, but rather how you are saying it.  One of the reasons so many of us come to this forum is the fact that we have discussions here, rather than flame wars.  As far as the subject matter goes, I actually agree with you on a lot of this (never thought I'd say that), but the way you deliver your thoughts clearly works against you.  If you make an attempt to behave like a civilized person, people will listen to you more.

A little while ago we had a thread where we defined some behavior rules for this forum.  If memory serves me right, you posted in that thread as well.  Please refer back to it occasionally.  That should provide some guidelines on how to express our opinions.  While you are there, also pay attention to a request by our hosts to not advertise for their competitors as you have recently done on several occasions in other threads.

ILya


Posted By: rootmanslim
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:45
K. First sorry about competitor, my error. I grew up in a very active and diverse political household where what you gentle souls call flame warms were normal discourse. History seems to be a losing cause in America and folks forgot or more probably never learned how the august founding fathers spoke about each other or 100 years later how the venerated Honest Abe was described in the media "The great baboon" etc. Now we are all so "nicey , nicey that no one says what they mean lest they be sued, called "insensitive" or get a law passed against it.
As to the whole issue of the USA & Israel... that merited a full afterburner flame war and I hope technikika will get beyond the PLO propaganda spewed by the Euro media.
On the other threads, you are 100% correct and I'm cooling my jets as long as no one advocates censorship (banning members) over opinions on the merits of product A vs B.
technikia has just started a new thread on old scopes which hopefully will shed some light on the "newest is best" discussion. Thanks, RMS


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Vagisil Tester


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 00:57
I do not think anyone has been banned here for disagreeing with other members.  Similarly, folk here are far from being politically correct in any way shape or form.  All I ask here is to maintain civility.  If we can not be civil with each other, then how are we different from the the opposition?  They believe that whoever screams loudest wins.  I always thought that we could be better than that.

ILya


Posted By: Chris Farris
Date Posted: January/17/2007 at 16:40

Topic locked in lieu of rule #4.

 

 



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