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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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Topic: New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted
Posted By: Dolphin
Subject: New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 08:12
This post has reference to the recent post on the RCM cartridges and the 270 Wby. vs 270 wsm. and really more on the advantages of the belted cartridges.  I really would like to see cartridge designers do something really novel, in this century and design some new cartridges around belted cartridges.  The main advantage of the belted cartridges is head spacing, which is the distance from the bolt face to the forward face of the belt which is very small.  While counterintuitive, even small changes, which rarely occur, will still fall withing SAAMI specs and in addition for amateur gunsmiths like myself, it makes adding a new threaded non-chambered barrel much easier, because head spacing does not depend on the chamber.  Sure some adjustments may need to be made, but not as drastic and alto can be handled with bullet seating.  Newer designs could have their diameter widened like the short mags for ultra performance.  The longer action does not bother me, if it bothers you, shorten the barrel, 18 or 20 inches and still exceed the performances of other cartridges. The issue of stiffness of an action based on the length is a mute point for hunting.  In the war for pushing the limit for performance, the belted cartridges for the most part still remain supreme.  Lazzeroni has very suspicious specs at an altitude of 3000 fps with 27 inch barrels and I have heard rumor of 28 inch.  With newer slower burning powders, the longer "new" belted cartridges could really fly.
 
Now, while I really believe that there could be some good non-magnum belted cartridges made and some magnums, I really do not think it is necessary.  It would be fun, given the explosion of cartridges that while interesting, really do not give us anything we do not offer us any ballistic advantages, only advantages in the rifles we shoot.  So, why not with the belted cartridges with some of their advantages.
 
But, the real truth of the post, is that the belted cartridge is still a great cartridge, has been and always will be and should never be forgotten or excluded as a choice of a caliber when buying a rifle, just because it is belted (as previously noted it does have its advantages.)  The only reason I bring this up, is that it seems to many people shy away from one at the sheer mention of the fact that is belted, with the exception of the 300 win. mag. as the average shooter does not know that it is belted.  This applies to the 300 H&H, Wbys. and all other belted cartridges.
 
Posted below are diagrams of head spacing for belted and non-belted cartridges of the 30-06 variety for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.
 
 


-------------
D. Overton



Replies:
Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 08:56
Good post, D
I am all for new cartridge design but I see nothing recently, nor anything coming, to get excited about. I thought electronic ignition offered something, off topic, though.
I find myself quite happy with the old, belted, guard. I'll stick with the standard 7mm, .300, .338 and .375.
I use a Wilson adjustable case length gage to size my belted magnums. The once fired casing is used for setting maximum length and allows me to resize as close as possible to head spacing off the shoulder. I've been getting seven reloads out of 7 mag cases for years.
 
Doug


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 10:44
i dont know if we really need anything new, i mean look at all the good ideas that came out 40-50yrs ago that are basically extinct now, 222 rem mag 219 zipper .284 winSad the list gets bigger every year, i would rather see some of the stuff that gone right now brought back instead of trying to make new stuff myself.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RONK
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 12:24
I'm With Pyro on this one. There is NOTHING in the hunting fields that can't be done with about 20 percent of the cartridges currently in production. The only thing "new" cartridges do is add expense, inventory problems for dealers and distributers and more headaches for gunsmiths and consumers. Nobody really benefitsin the long run. New bullet designs? Go for it! New propellent chemistry? Absolutely!  But changing cartridge dimensions for the sake of making something "new" is silly. It also seems to be an ego trip for it's "designer".
 Notice how they always name the cartridge after themselves?  I think I'll obtain everlasting fame by necking down a 300 Weatherby to .17 and calling it the .17 RONK Super Magnum....Roll%20Eyes


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 12:50
i like mine a 50bmg necked down to 6.5 mm
6.5x50bfg


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 15:03
where we need some help i think is in the 244 and 257 dept's really the 25wssm and the 243wssm are the newest additions, but i think they should have done them in a long action

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: sinsir
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 17:21

no ideas about those wildcats, as i don't reload, but here's a name for ya - the superduper critter-git-er...



Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/09/2007 at 18:11
I see you all got my real point as noted in my last couple paragraphs.  The belted cartridges are great cartridges as are the non-belted and my point was to get people to admit that with the cartridges we have in both categories, we have pretty much everything we need.  But, at the same time, if the cartridge designers are going to make multiple variations of non-belted cartridges, I would just as soon see the same thing done with belted cartridges.  Personally I have designed, only on paper, internal systems, for the lack of a better term, forcing cones or directions baffles, to make long caliber cartridges, belted or non-belted, more efficient.  These are the other areas of design that I would like to see done.  Of course with these cartridges, neck sizing for re loaders would only be done and shooting them in only one rifle, of course, would be necessary.  Just some thoughts.  Cartridge design for years has been stuck with the shape and volume.  The internal dimensions need to be addressed as the guys who developed the 5mm/35 SMc cartridge.

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/10/2007 at 22:12

I've read the WSM's have rebated rims - slightly smaller than the case diameter.  Maybe that accounts for the reported higher incidence of extraction/ejection problems.  My 270 WSM Tikka seemed pretty slick working though. 

New calibers are interesting and seem to keep the manufacturers on their toes.  But I too prefer the old tried belted mags best.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 18:04
Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

...Maybe that accounts for the reported higher incidence of extraction/ejection problems. 
 
There are no problems whatsoever with extracting WSM cases.  There can be problems with ejecting WSM cases, just due to the fact they are fat for their length, but not usually.  The main problem sometimes cited for the WSM cases is feeding from the magazine.  The combination of the fat case and short length means the round must travel up the feed ramp in a rather steep angle when chambering, so accommodations have to be made for widening the front portion of the feed rails to allow the rear portion of the case to pop out of the magazine earlier in the forward bolt travel and the feed ramp also must be modified from the normal profile used with standard short action rounds based on the .308 case.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 18:54
ive never had a problem with mine either in that aspect

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 19:12
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

This post has reference to the recent post on the RCM cartridges and the 270 Wby. vs 270 wsm. and really more on the advantages of the belted cartridges.  I really would like to see cartridge designers do something really novel, in this century and design some new cartridges around belted cartridges.  The main advantage of the belted cartridges is head spacing, which is the distance from the bolt face to the forward face of the belt which is very small.  While counterintuitive, even small changes, which rarely occur, will still fall withing SAAMI specs and in addition for amateur gunsmiths like myself, it makes adding a new threaded non-chambered barrel much easier, because head spacing does not depend on the chamber.  Sure some adjustments may need to be made, but not as drastic and alto can be handled with bullet seating.  Newer designs could have their diameter widened like the short mags for ultra performance.  The longer action does not bother me, if it bothers you, shorten the barrel, 18 or 20 inches and still exceed the performances of other cartridges. The issue of stiffness of an action based on the length is a mute point for hunting.  In the war for pushing the limit for performance, the belted cartridges for the most part still remain supreme.  Lazzeroni has very suspicious specs at an altitude of 3000 fps with 27 inch barrels and I have heard rumor of 28 inch.  With newer slower burning powders, the longer "new" belted cartridges could really fly.
 
Now, while I really believe that there could be some good non-magnum belted cartridges made and some magnums, I really do not think it is necessary.  It would be fun, given the explosion of cartridges that while interesting, really do not give us anything we do not offer us any ballistic advantages, only advantages in the rifles we shoot.  So, why not with the belted cartridges with some of their advantages.
 
But, the real truth of the post, is that the belted cartridge is still a great cartridge, has been and always will be and should never be forgotten or excluded as a choice of a caliber when buying a rifle, just because it is belted (as previously noted it does have its advantages.)  The only reason I bring this up, is that it seems to many people shy away from one at the sheer mention of the fact that is belted, with the exception of the 300 win. mag. as the average shooter does not know that it is belted.  This applies to the 300 H&H, Wbys. and all other belted cartridges.
 
Posted below are diagrams of head spacing for belted and non-belted cartridges of the 30-06 variety for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.
 
 
 
Dolphin,
While I think I understand and agree with what you're trying to say from the standpoint that we already have plenty of great cartridges available to cover every possible shooting application, pertaining to the supposed "advantages" of the belt, I couldn't disagree more.
 
The fact is, there are no "advantages" whatsoever to the belt, and instead, only disadvantages.  More on that in a moment.
 
The reason our current family of belted magnums have the belt is very simple -- the .375 H&H had it from the beginning, and all our belted magnums are originally derived from the .375 H&H parent case -- all of them.  The reason the .375 H&H case was designed with the belt is due to 2 main historical events in firearms history -- the transition from black powder to smokeless and the emerging popularity of the bolt action.  During the first decade of the 1900's, the English arms industry had developed Cordite (now obsolete), which was the first smokeless powder.  Cordite was long and cylindrical in form, and therefore demanded straight walled cases for ease of loading.  So, this is why the .375 H&H was designed with a gradual body and shoulder taper, which was formed after the powder charge was already loaded in the case, at the same time crimping the bullet in place.  This gradual body taper meant that there wasn't much of a shoulder to headspace on, which meant that the case needed some sort of rim to establish headspace.  However, at the same time, the bolt action was becoming popular, so the cartridge had to feed smoothly from a magazine, which a rim wouldn't permit.  So the now-familiar belt was the compromise solution to give the cartridge something to headspace on, yet still feed from a magazine at the same time.  Since all our belted magnums were either derived directly from the .375 H&H parent case or from some other case that was in turn derived from it, the belt was retained, even though all the modern belted magnums have a straight wall and sufficiently sharp shoulder to headspace on the shoulder.
 
Now, the disadvantages of the belt...
- Since the belted mag case headspaces on the front of the belt, instead of the shoulder, there's a lot of unsupported case dangling out into the chamber, and since there has to be clearance between the case and chamber for reliable feeding, the belted case has sloppier initial bullet to bore alignment, which doesn't help accuracy.  This doesn't at all mean that a belted magnum can't be accurate, but the short headspace is inferior to headspacing closer to the bullet o.d. in terms of ensuring concentric initial bullet entry into the lands.
-  If there is excess clearance between the remainder of the case forward of the belt and the chamber, the case stretches excessively when fireforming to the chamber, causing short brass life, and in worse case scenarios, case head separation.
-  A belted case, all else being equal, can at best be made to feed almost as smoothly as an unbelted case of the same length and diameter, but theoretically can never feed quite as smoothly as an uninterrupted, straight case wall design.  Again, this assumes a case of the same length and diameter being compared, the unbelted short fat cases are a notable exception.
 
-  A belted case robs potential case capacity, because a case design at the same diameter as the belt, gradually tapering forward could instead be used with the same action/bolt face with no size penalty whatsoever.
 
As for the short headspacing being an advantage, again, it is a decided disadvantage to both potential accuracy and case life.  In fact, quite often savvy reloaders of belted mags will set their sizing dies so that it doesn't set the shoulder back, which then causes the case to headspace on the shoulder anyway. 
 
Pertaining to the short headspace on the belt somehow making chambering easier, this is false as well, because to cut a proper chamber, you will still need headspacing gages to do the job properly -- that is, if you expect to have an accurate (and safe) rifle -- regardless of where the case headspaces.
 
As for the statement "headspacing does not depend on the chamber," while this is basically true, it also overlooks a very important factor -- the rest of the chamber and specifically the distance between the front of the belt and the shoulder is still vitally important for safety.  Remember, besides holding the bullet, powder, and primer together in a single unit until the rifle is fire

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 20:16
jesus ted all that just gave me a head ache anybody got some aleve!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 20:24
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

jesus ted all that just gave me a head ache anybody got some aleve!
 
D posted a thoughtful topic, and I felt that even though I disagree with his premise, he in turn deserved a thoughtful response, rather than just saying "nope, t'ain't so."


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/11/2007 at 20:32
no it was a great post just a lot to think about and i got plenty going on in my head right now plus my kids dont wanna go to bed

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 08:36
Ted, your historically references for which the belted case was originally designed is correct.  But, as the diagrams shown, the primary, or the first and foremost headspacing is done from the bolt face to the forward face to the belt.  Therefore, changes that occur in the chamber of all rifles are less likely to affect head spacing and create a situation where you have excessive head space and a bolt close on a no go gouger, creating a really dangerous situation.  Yes, the shell does act as a gasket, but fortunately, as you well know, the modern bolt actions of today are forgiving as demonstrated by all of the reloaders today practicing various techniques with respect to resizing the neck or the entire case using the reloads in various rifles.  Obviously, the cartridge will not create an entire seal through out the length of the cartridge.  The longer the cartridge, the more likely you will have a greater % area of seal, regardless of whether it is a belted or non-belted cartridge.  Another point that is partially correct, is that all cartridges that have shoulders, will provide prevention of the cartridge moving in the direction of the projectile and thus serves as a point of headspacing.  But, the vast majority of energy is direct onto the forward face of that belt.  Another point is that brass of any given caliber for a rifle of that caliber, does not create a complete seal, hence the term fire forming and not resizing the complete cartridge when reloading, if you are going to use it in the same rifle, for two reasons, one to extend the life of the brass and to better fit the rifle chamber and hopefully improve accuracy.
 
Truthfully, I would have to see hard data showing there is a sloppier fit with belted cartridges in the chamber of fresh ammo.  I really believe it is dependant on the caliber and the shape.
 
So, in essence, I disagree with the disadvantages you offer and agree with the fact that feeding is often flawless.  Yes the belt robs case capacity, but with newer powders, the belted magnums still stand and the front of the pack for velocity and energy and for hunting accuracy are comparable to any.  And, as I stated, with experimentation, expansion of the case size, shortening the barrel and using what I believe are the advantages, you could have a block buster.
 
But, as I said, really, this was a post to bring up some thought, as we have so many cartridges and the response I got was what I expected, that what we have will do anything we need.
 
One other thing.  In my post, I stated, with headspacing on the belt, it would be easier to mount a barrel, but I believe you failed to notice that I did say with some adjustments will need to be made, but not as drastic.
 
One more thing.  I do not own any short mags.  But, I still hear from friends about problems cycling rounds, read about the problem and hear about it at the local gun shop.  On the site hear, nobody has any problems.  I think the problem is with the user. 
 
With reference to the previous paragraph and the problem with the user.  That is why I like to come to this site.  All the guys that I know that hunt, are good hunters, but when I have asked them simple questions like, how did they come up with the gauge system or what is headspacing or simple optics questions, they look at me like I have 3 eye.  These are same people that have problems with their short mags.
 
One more thing Ted.  Your opinions are held in high regard by me and all of your points made are well taken and to some point true, with the caveats made in my rebuttal.  My point was to see what responses I would get about the need for new cartridge design.  So, to simply things.  Lets just agree to disagree on the above noted points to avoid a long series of rebuttals.  Like I said, I regard you as probably one of the most knowledgeable persons on the site and despite some of my disagreements with your post, I still learned some things, as usual.


-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 10:31
im going to say this, if i ever feel the need to stoke up my ego i just grab a belted magnum and head into the woods, i cannot think of anything you can load up into a rifle that gives you that feeling like yeah ive got some power in my hands here.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 13:51
22LR, 223,22-250, 243, 260, 270, 280, 30-30, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H.  Anything else you really need to do anything with a rifle?  Yeah, all the other stuff is fun, but we don't need any more cartridges.  Of the above list, the only ones I own are 22LR, 243, and 30-30.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 13:54
Hey, where's the 7 mag


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 14:44
I'm in agreement with Ted concerning the belts. I also believe that it would get a little boring with just a handful of "necessary" chamberings. No we don't need more cartridge designs to do anything that can't already be done with whats already out there. But........as long as there are shooters and reloaders and experimenters out there.......somebody will always be necking something down or blowing something out to make a new loudenboomer. Only reason I see for two different families of cartridges are that some don't like long actions and some don't like short. That said the list above needs a 7mm-08 and 308 added.....

Just as a side note, I've shot a couple of the 450wsm's and man are they a short action woods hammer......366DGW is kinda cool too. Notice gun manufactures are the ones bringing out most of the newer cartridges......sells more guns and creates a need that don't really exist......but don't look for it to stop....

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 14:47
ive got everything on the list except .223 260 270 338 and 375

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 14:57
WHAT You don't have a 270? Yikes! I can't believe what I'm seeing.......how can you possibly expect to earn the Jack O award this year.....:>)

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 15:08
i wont win the jack o award but i will win the jackass award!

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 15:33
you know i should dig that article out of one of my magazines that i have and show what one of the gun writters thought about all the chamberings that are offered today and really piss some people off by re-printing that article and tell the ones he'd keep and the ones he'd get rid of, some i agree with some of it i was like wtf is he thinking there.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mwyates
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 17:21
OK, OK, add the 7 Mag to my list


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 17:23
i dont have the 7mm either yetLight%20It%20Up

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 20:04
Dolphin,
Sorry, but you misunderstood my distinction between headspacing and excess clearance between the forward portion of the case and chamber.  Don't confuse the two, though they are somewhat related.  I'm not trying to engage in a long series of rebuttals, but this concept is totally germane to your points about belted cartridges and I feel needs to be mentioned to help you avoid mistakes and frustration, since you're planning to start chambering barrels.  Also, understanding these concepts are vitally important to an amateur gunsmith for safety reasons, which cannot be overstated.  Respectfully, your statement:
Therefore, changes that occur in the chamber of all rifles are less likely to affect head spacing and create a situation where you have excessive head space and a bolt close on a no go gouger, creating a really dangerous situation.  Yes, the shell does act as a gasket, but fortunately, as you well know, the modern bolt actions of today are forgiving as demonstrated by all of the reloaders today practicing various techniques with respect to resizing the neck or the entire case using the reloads in various rifles.  Obviously, the cartridge will not create an entire seal through out the length of the cartridge.  The longer the cartridge, the more likely you will have a greater % area of seal, regardless of whether it is a belted or non-belted cartridge. 
 
is incorrect and misses the point.  First of all, the cartridge DOES create a 100% seal, and it HAS to, otherwise very bad things happen!  Hot, high pressure gasses are coming back toward the shooter thorough the firing pin hole, extractor slot cuts in the bolt face, etc.  Once you have 50,000 psi of pressure acting on the case, the brass expands in all directions to totally conform to the chamber very rapidly by the time the bullet is expelled from the case.  If the brass has to expand too far due to too much clearance between the case and chamber wall, the yield strength of the brass is exceeded and it splits, no longer forming a seal, and gas is coming backwards.  This is where the totally enclosed bolt face has a safety advantage and why Rem designed their M700 bolt face with the extractor totally inside the bolt face counterbore.  Even though a belted case headspaces on the belt, excess case clearance in the remainder of the chamber has the same effect as excess headspace in a non-belted case -- a ruptured case, which any way you slice it is an extremely unsafe condition!
 
Read Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts," as he does a better job of explaining the concept of initial bullet misalignment when there is a sloppy fit between the case and chamber than I could here.  By headspacing on the belt, you have a very short area of actual cartridge support, contrasted with a cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder where you have 2 conical mating surfaces between case and chamber that helps self-center the case and does a better job of alignining the bullet with the lands.  The more you can increase the supported length of the case and heaspace as close as possible to the bullet, the better as far as accuracy is concerned.  If the case is settling more on one side of the chamber than the other by gravity or ejector spring pressure, even by a few 0.001", the bullet will enter the rifling slightly yawed, and it's centerline of rotation will not be concentric with the centerline of the bore, which hinders accuracy.  This is one of the reasons why many benchrest shooters turn necks and shoot fireformed, neck sized only cases.  However, it sounds like you already understand this somewhat by your statement that fireformed brass "...extend(s) the life of the brass and to better fit the rifle chamber and hopefully improve accuracy. (emphasis added)"  The reason it does help improve accuracy is better concentricity with the bore.  The alignment issue doesn't matter a great deal when it comes to hunting rifles, but still, since it is a disadvantage nonetheless, why design a new cartridge with a belt if it doesn't need it for headspacing?  Again, there are no advantages to the belt in the design of a modern cartridge... none whatsoever.  This isn't a matter of opinion, it's fact.
 
There is no difference in neither the process nor ease required to chamber and install a barrel with either a belted or non belted chambering.  Either will require you chuck the barrel on centers in a lathe, prebore the chamber, finish with a piloted chamber reamer, and face the barrel tenon.  Reaming by hand is for removing small amounts of material, converting existing chambers to "improved" versions.
 
As for feeding problems with the short mags, the problem mainly arises when you convert an existing short action rifle to a short mag.  The hoopla about WSM feeding problems started when these rounds were first introduced and gunsmiths hadn't yet understood how to make them feed properly.  I even know of a couple gunsmiths that refuse to chamber WSMs because they have problems making them feed right in converted actions.  Rebarrel a short action M700 to a WSM without widening the forward portion of the feed rails and the sides of the feed ramp, and you WILL have feeding problems, guaranteed because without these modifications, the short fat cartridge is trying to enter the chamber at too abrupt an angle.  I found that out first hand with mine, and learned quite a bit about feeding concepts from several phone conversations with a very prominent competition rifle builder from the northeast.  A new action built specifically for the short mags from the beginning doesn't have this problem.  Good thing the short mags don't also have the belt to contend with...Whacko
 
 


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 20:41
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dolphin,
Sorry, but you misunderstood my distinction between headspacing and excess clearance between the forward portion of the case and chamber.  Don't confuse the two, though they are somewhat related.  I'm not trying to engage in a long series of rebuttals, but this concept is totally germane to your points about belted cartridges and I feel needs to be mentioned to help you avoid mistakes and frustration, since you're planning to start chambering barrels.  Also, understanding these concepts are vitally important to an amateur gunsmith for safety reasons, which cannot be overstated.  Respectfully, your statement:
Therefore, changes that occur in the chamber of all rifles are less likely to affect head spacing and create a situation where you have excessive head space and a bolt close on a no go gouger, creating a really dangerous situation.  Yes, the shell does act as a gasket, but fortunately, as you well know, the modern bolt actions of today are forgiving as demonstrated by all of the reloaders today practicing various techniques with respect to resizing the neck or the entire case using the reloads in various rifles.  Obviously, the cartridge will not create an entire seal through out the length of the cartridge.  The longer the cartridge, the more likely you will have a greater % area of seal, regardless of whether it is a belted or non-belted cartridge. 
 
is incorrect and misses the point.  First of all, the cartridge DOES create a 100% seal, and it HAS to, otherwise very bad things happen!  Hot, high pressure gasses are coming back toward the shooter thorough the firing pin hole, extractor slot cuts in the bolt face, etc.  Once you have 50,000 psi of pressure acting on the case, the brass expands in all directions to totally conform to the chamber very rapidly by the time the bullet is expelled from the case.  If the brass has to expand too far due to too much clearance between the case and chamber wall, the yield strength of the brass is exceeded and it splits, no longer forming a seal, and gas is coming backwards.  This is where the totally enclosed bolt face has a safety advantage and why Rem designed their M700 bolt face with the extractor totally inside the bolt face counterbore.  Even though a belted case headspaces on the belt, excess case clearance in the remainder of the chamber has the same effect as excess headspace in a non-belted case -- a ruptured case, which any way you slice it is an extremely unsafe condition!
 
Read Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts," as he does a better job of explaining the concept of initial bullet misalignment when there is a sloppy fit between the case and chamber than I could here.  By headspacing on the belt, you have a very short area of actual cartridge support, contrasted with a cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder where you have 2 conical mating surfaces between case and chamber that helps self-center the case and does a better job of alignining the bullet with the lands.  The more you can increase the supported length of the case and heaspace as close as possible to the bullet, the better as far as accuracy is concerned.  If the case is settling more on one side of the chamber than the other by gravity or ejector spring pressure, even by a few 0.001", the bullet will enter the rifling slightly yawed, and it's centerline of rotation will not be concentric with the centerline of the bore, which hinders accuracy.  This is one of the reasons why many benchrest shooters turn necks and shoot fireformed, neck sized only cases.  However, it sounds like you already understand this somewhat by your statement that fireformed brass "...extend(s) the life of the brass and to better fit the rifle chamber and hopefully improve accuracy. (emphasis added)"  The reason it does help improve accuracy is better concentricity with the bore.  The alignment issue doesn't matter a great deal when it comes to hunting rifles, but still, since it is a disadvantage nonetheless, why design a new cartridge with a belt if it doesn't need it for headspacing?  Again, there are no advantages to the belt in the design of a modern cartridge... none whatsoever.  This isn't a matter of opinion, it's fact.
 
There is no difference in neither the process nor ease required to chamber and install a barrel with either a belted or non belted chambering.  Either will require you chuck the barrel on centers in a lathe, prebore the chamber, finish with a piloted chamber reamer, and face the barrel tenon.  Reaming by hand is for removing small amounts of material, converting existing chambers to "improved" versions.
 
As for feeding problems with the short mags, the problem mainly arises when you convert an existing short action rifle to a short mag.  The hoopla about WSM feeding problems started when these rounds were first introduced and gunsmiths hadn't yet understood how to make them feed properly.  I even know of a couple gunsmiths that refuse to chamber WSMs because they have problems making them feed right in converted actions.  Rebarrel a short action M700 to a WSM without widening the forward portion of the feed rails and the sides of the feed ramp, and you WILL have feeding problems, guaranteed because without these modifications, the short fat cartridge is trying to enter the chamber at too abrupt an angle.  I found that out first hand with mine, and learned quite a bit about feeding concepts from several phone conversations with a very prominent competition rifle builder from the northeast.  A new action built specifically for the short mags from the beginning doesn't have this problem.  Good thing the short mags don't also have the belt to contend with...Whacko
 
 
First, examine a no go gauge for a belted cartridge, totally different than that of a 30-06.  If I may repeat, that is because the case headspaces on the belt.  The slop that you say is at the shoulders is in your opinion.  Why would a belted case have more slop at the shoulders than a non-belted case.  It makes no sense at all and in fact, your statement is a an argument that producers of belted cases have poor quality control.  There is absolutely no reason hat a belted case should have more slop in the shoulders of the case than a non-belted case.  That argument is absolutely ridiculous.  How many hunters do you know that have suffered using a 300 win. mag or 7mm. rem. mag. because of the belted cases.  Both are extremely accurate cartridges and to think otherwise is like looking into the head lights of car, in the style of a deer.  One could make an argument that the belted cases have two safeguards with respect to headspacing, the belt and the shoulder.  Modern case manufacturers do make cases that do not have excessive slop.  As far as the Rem. 700 action is concerned, please relinquish the fact that with all due respect and my admiration and love for the 700, Wby. has taken great lengths to make the strongest bolt action production rifle on the market and close to one of the strongest of all.  So, please do not let your enthusiasm for the aftermarket availability of parts and conversions, sway any decision regarding your remarks.  Everyone knows that the 700 reigns supreme in this realm.  The belted case is

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/12/2007 at 22:27
Sorry, buddy, but you still don't understand what I'm trying to say.  There HAS to be clearance between a full length resized case (as in factory ammo) and the chamber, otherwise, some cases wouldn't feed into some chambers.  The clearance is built into the SAAMI tolerances.  It has nothing to do with poor quality control.  You have to understand the concept of manufacturing tolerances to fully grasp what I'm talking about.  Every manufactured product is made to acceptable dimensional tolerances, and no two mass produced parts can ever mate absolutely perfectly with one another, especially when they are produced in different processes from different manufacturers.  This is why a fireformed, neck sized only case won't chamber in many rifles besides the one it was fired in.  The reason a belted case DOES have more slop at the forward end of the case than a non-belted case is because it DOES NOT headspace at the shoulder, but on the belt.  The belt stops further forward movement of the case in the chamber, preventing the shoulder from making contact with the front of the chamber.  At best, a case may headspace on both the shoulder and the belt at the same time, but not typically.  This is why reloaders find it advantageous to not set the shoulder back when resizing so it no longer headspaces on the belt, but on the shoulder.  If the gap between case shoulder and chamber didn't exist when a FL resized round is inserted into the chamber, then how would it be possible for the shoulder height to grow after firing, making it possible for a reloaded, fireformed case to then headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt?  Under normal circumstances, this gap isn't huge by the way; only a few 0.001".  In a properly chambered rifle to specs, this IS NOT a safety issue at all, because there isn't enough brass stretch forward of the belt to cause case rupture.  The answer to your rhetorical question: "How many hunters do you know that have suffered using a 300 win. mag or 7mm. rem. mag. because of the belted cases" is a resounding NONE, because as I said in my first post on this, the chamber dimensional relationships are fixed by the reamer profile.  Therefore, it WON'T happen in a properly chambered rifle, using properly sized cases.  My point here was merely an attempt to explain to you why your assumption that the chamber forward of the belt doesn't matter is false.  To illustrate the point, I was using as an example what sometimes happens when a handloader forms a case from another parent case and sets the shoulder too far back.  You will also notice in my first post that I said belted magnums can be very accurate, and frequently are.  But, I repeat, if you are putting together all the best case design features into one, you would NOT incorporate the belt if your goal was to maximize accuracy, case life, feeding smoothness, and case capacity.
 
What I have relayed to you about belted cases is not opinion, either mine or someone else's regurgitated back to you; it is fact.  I'm sorry you don't understand or accept this, but ask around and you'll find I'm not telling you anything that isn't common knowledge among experienced gunsmiths.  To answer your question, the reason the belted cases are here to stay is because our first magnum cartridges, and some of the most popular, time proven cartridges ever invented, are based on the .375 H&H parent case, NOT because the belt itself serves any advantageous purpose.  On cases like the .375 and .300 H&H, it did serve a purpose.  It DOES NOT any more with sharp shouldered cases.  This is why NONE of the new magnum cartridge introductions have the belt. 
 
If you've read my statements carefully, I'm not at all saying we don't have fine cartridge choices based on belted cases.  Two of my personal favorite rounds, the 7RM and 300WM, are belted.  I'm confining my comments solely to the belt itself as an individual design feature.  The modern belted cartridges would be slightly superior without the belt and there is no logical reason at all to use the belt on a brand new cartridge design if the designer is starting from a clean sheet of paper and not basing it on the .375 H&H parent case.  At the time our popular belted mags were designed, it was not practical to use another parent case, otherwise, they wouldn't have the belts today.
 
On the Rem 700, AGAIN -- and please read this very carefully -- I'm not talking about bolt lug shear strength or any other aspect of action strength other than gas handling.  There is no way ANY bolt action design from ANY maker incorporating a non-enclosed bolt face is as safe as an enclosed bolt face design in terms of handling gas blowback into the action in the event of a ruptured case.  With the unenclosed bolt face, gas bleeds around the extractor slot, fixed ejector slot, or CRF slot.  With the enclosed bolt face, there is no place for the gas to go except out the barrel, and the barrel tenon is counterbored to accept the bolt face extension.  This has nothing whatsoever to do with my supposed enthusiasm over aftermarket parts and conversions, and in fact, I've stated repeatedly that my favorite actions are all variations of the Mauser design, even though I realize they are inferior in this one aspect of their design.  I didn't intend to get into a discussion of the relative merits of actions.  I only used the Rem 700 as an illustration of why the enclosed bolt face was designed to help clarify my statements about what happens when brass stretches too far under extreme pressure.
 
If you wish to continue telling me my statements are "ridiculous," send me a PM and I'll be happy to give you my phone number.  We can continue this discussion over the phone where we won't get cramps from typing.  I'll even pay for the call.Big%20Smile


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 05:39

Ted, I understand your statement as far as the potential for more slop if the cartridge headspaces on the belt, given chamber variations of rifles and to that I can agree, but given the quality of the rifles and ammunition I purchase, i.e. Wby. I do not feel that is a problem, as Norma manufactures to strict tolerances for that specific rifle.  But still there are tolerances, I will give you that.  But, I will argue that chamber variation occurs in in non-belted caliber rifles.  While this does not translate into slop, it does affect accuracy and hence the reason some ammo works better than others and the fact carefully done hand loads using the Hornady/Stoney point gauge and even better when using the comparator gauge, you can get very accurate loads.  Personally, I would not hand load on the shoulders for a belted cartridge.  First, if it has been fire formed, you are set, the slop will be gone, making sure all you dimensions are correct and second, you set up a weak point at the belt, where there is a strong point and a weak point, i.e. a possible point where case separation could occur.  Obviously this is a probably rare, with all the hand loaders around.  I apologize for the term, ridiculous, it was not meant as a personal affrontment regarding your knowledge or statements, but regarding strictly quality control, to which you did not ever make a comment about.

Ted, actually, I really believe with both are agreeing on the topic, minus just a few points.  I understand what you have to say, which is all true, but I think that going through a forum like this, it is difficult to understand each others point and takes longer to get to that understanding.  And yes, If you could PM me you phone number, I will give you a call just to talk, not only about this but other things.



-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:48

Dolphin, buddy, it's evident I'm not able to do a very good job of explaining what I'm talking about, as you still don't understand the point.  Apparently, this is one of those things that I'd have to draw a picture to illustrate. 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, I understand your statement as far as the potential for more slop if the cartridge headspaces on the belt, given chamber variations of rifles and to that I can agree, but given the quality of the rifles and ammunition I purchase, i.e. Wby. I do not feel that is a problem, as Norma manufactures to strict tolerances for that specific rifle. 
All ammunition manufacturers, reamer manufacturers, headspace gage manufacturers, and firearms manufacturers adhere to SAAMI tolerances, otherwise you would not be able to interchange different brands of factory ammo in different factory rifles.  Wby and Norma are no different than anyone else in this regard.  I didn't say there was a "problem," I was attempting to explain to you the many reasons why headspacing really close to the bolt face was inferior to headspacing at the shoulder so you would understand why the new magnums don't have a belt and why it's advantageous for them not to.  The title of your thread is "new cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted," and I was speaking to the fact that in every respect, having a belt on the case is a disadvantage, not in any way an advantage.  This in no way implies that there's something wrong with belted magnums, only that they would be better without the belt present from a design standpoint.  I think maybe you are hung up on my use of the word "slop."  Maybe instead of "slop," which has a negative connotation, I should have used the word "clearance" throughout, because I use these two words interchangeably to mean the same thing.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

But still there are tolerances, I will give you that.  But, I will argue that chamber variation occurs in in non-belted caliber rifles.  While this does not translate into slop, it does affect accuracy and hence the reason some ammo works better than others and the fact carefully done hand loads using the Hornady/Stoney point gauge and even better when using the comparator gauge, you can get very accurate loads. 
There are designed-in manufacturing tolerances to every consumer product you buy that isn't hand made; there has to be.  People outside of manufacturing commonly misunderstand the concept of tolerances.  Tolerances are not the result of any inability to control quality; quite the opposite, they are acceptable dimensional variations set by control limits that are designed in to the product before the product is actually made to ensure proper functioning and interchangeability of mating components.  The Stoney Point gage and the various comparators measures bullet seating depth only; it does not address case to chamber clearances. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Personally, I would not hand load on the shoulders for a belted cartridge.  First, if it has been fire formed, you are set, the slop will be gone, making sure all you dimensions are correct and second, you set up a weak point at the belt, where there is a strong point and a weak point, i.e. a possible point where case separation could occur. 
 If you are handloading using fireformed cases, you ARE in fact headspacing on the shoulder and NOT on the belt, whether you realize it or not.  This DOES NOT set up any "weak point" at the belt or anywhere else and there is NO disadvantage to doing this other than the tighter fit sometimes causing chambering difficulty in the field.  Your brass will last much longer when you do this, which, along with the potential accuracy improvement, is why people do it. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

...but regarding strictly quality control, to which you did not ever make a comment about.
  Yes, in fact I did; reread my reply
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, actually, I really believe with both are agreeing on the topic, minus just a few points. 
  If your basic premise is that there's any advantage to a case belt whatsoever, other than the fact that the brass that has it is readily available, then no, we're 180 degrees apart. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

And yes, If you could PM me you phone number, I will give you a call just to talk, not only about this but other things.
Done.  Check your PMs.



-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:55
oh boy class is in session kids and i fear im not going to do so good in school as i did when i was younger.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:59

starting with a disclaimer-- not trying to cover all the points-- but two ways to judge case head strength, ratio of primer area to total case head size, and thickness of the web (which certainly puts cases like the 9x23 in the strongest catagory).  Load for 416,338,300 in belt and pretend the belt isn't there, headspace of shoulder, and so do all the target shooters I shoot against. Except in the case of 416 where reliability is the over riding issue then FL resizing.

no bench rest round has a belt

no long distance round of recent design has a belt.

belts feed sh*ty out of box magazines

the residual pressure just as the bullet leaves the barrel, just to pick a number, can be around 4-6 atmospheres, or between 4-10 joules. by this time the case is no longer seized by the sides of the chamber and has returned to orginal specs, and if not neck sized only,  can be still be have the primer pushed back and flattened given the appearance of over load. (occurs in revolvers all the time, and guns that use silencers). If using a belt helped the machine gun people would be all over it.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 08:14
holy crap dale that made some sense thanks

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 12:53
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

starting with a disclaimer-- not trying to cover all the points-- but two ways to judge case head strength, ratio of primer area to total case head size, and thickness of the web (which certainly puts cases like the 9x23 in the strongest catagory).  Load for 416,338,300 in belt and pretend the belt isn't there, headspace of shoulder, and so do all the target shooters I shoot against. Except in the case of 416 where reliability is the over riding issue then FL resizing.

no bench rest round has a belt

no long distance round of recent design has a belt.

belts feed sh*ty out of box magazines

the residual pressure just as the bullet leaves the barrel, just to pick a number, can be around 4-6 atmospheres, or between 4-10 joules. by this time the case is no longer seized by the sides of the chamber and has returned to orginal specs, and if not neck sized only,  can be still be have the primer pushed back and flattened given the appearance of over load. (occurs in revolvers all the time, and guns that use silencers). If using a belt helped the machine gun people would be all over it.

Good point, which made my point, that if there was such excessive slop with the belted cartridge one should see more problems with the belted cases as that is a potential weak link, where a strong point meets a weaker point.  But it does not happen.  As far as belted cases feeding sh*tty out of magazines, thats funny, never had one malfunction shooting all those belted cartridges.


-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:02
ive never had a malfunction with any of my belted cases either.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:15
whens the last time you tried to get a belted case in a M1-A mag.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:17
why in the world would i wanna do that i only use belted cases for hunting not competition

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:18
Ted, I think you misunderstood my statement with respect to Norma and Wby..  Norma manufactures its ammo in strict tolerances not only to SAAMI specs., but to Wby. rifles.  I have used non-Wby. brand Wby. cartridges and there is a clear difference in accuracy, hands down.  Even the published velocities and energies of similar cartridges are not the same.
With respect to your statement regarding quality control, I did not see any such statement in your original post and if there was, it was not referring to that, but just to the fact that with respect to quality control, the tolerances for belted and non-belted cases should be no different.
As far a shooting fire formed brass, in the case of belted cartridges, if properly trimmed to size, you should be headspacing on the belt, as you previously state that some handloaders purposely set the shoulders back to headspace on the shoulders, or did you mean with unfired brass?
I perfectly understand what manufacturing tolerances are.  While I do not work in an industry that is production based, I think most of us on this forum use products everyday that are produced on a mass scale and realize that there are variations that we have learned to live with and occasional as the bell curve dictates, some will deviate further than others.
My point that we basically agree on alot of things regarding this topic, still rings true, but is being expressed differently and from a different standpoint.  I tend to think outside of the box and was curious as to what others thought about the topic.  As I stated clearly, I really do not see the need for more experimentation with the belted cartridge, as a whole, I really do not see that many disadvantages.  I do not believe we are 180 degrees apart if you really look and read what we have both said.  Yes, I can see how there would be excessive slop, but is it crucial to the shooter.  I really do not believe so.  And I agree with many of your other points.  So, lets call it quits on this topic.


-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:19
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Good point, which made my point, that if there was such excessive slop with the belted cartridge one should see more problems with the belted cases as that is a potential weak link, where a strong point meets a weaker point.  But it does not happen.
Actually, he's disputing your point, and you're still taking what I said out of context...
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I didn't say there was a "problem," I was attempting to explain to you the many reasons why headspacing really close to the bolt face was inferior to headspacing at the shoulder so you would understand why the new magnums don't have a belt and why it's advantageous for them not to.  The title of your thread is "new cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted," and I was speaking to the fact that in every respect, having a belt on the case is a disadvantage, not in any way an advantage.  This in no way implies that there's something wrong with belted magnums, only that they would be better without the belt present from a design standpoint.  I think maybe you are hung up on my use of the word "slop."  Maybe instead of "slop," which has a negative connotation, I should have used the word "clearance" throughout, because I use these two words interchangeably to mean the same thing.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:20
ah man you guys cant quit now, your teaching me!!! im learning a lot about what goes on inside when the boom occurs and the sciences behind it working properly

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:26
Truthfully, I could not figure out what DC was saying.

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Truthfully, I could not figure out what DC was saying.
basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:30
I really do not see the need for more experimentation with the belted cartridge, as a whole, I really do not see that many disadvantages.
no disadvantage to something already in the distribution system
but thats why experimentation continues on N0n-belted cases.
which part not intelligible.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:32
i really feel that until they came out with these new short mags and ultra mag that there really wasnt anything left to try, and i really feel that way now that the ultras and shorts and super shorts have come out

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:40
basically to put it in simple english, he thinks belted cases suck and are a waste of time and money and material
too harsh, not a cartridge whore -- its the rest of the shooting world I was talkin about.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:42
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, I think you misunderstood my statement with respect to Norma and Wby..  Norma manufactures its ammo in strict tolerances not only to SAAMI specs., but to Wby. rifles.  I have used non-Wby. brand Wby. cartridges and there is a clear difference in accuracy, hands down. 
The differences in accuracy has nothing to do with exterior case dimensions, which is what I'm referring to there, but instead, load data. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

As far a shooting fire formed brass, in the case of belted cartridges, if properly trimmed to size, you should be headspacing on the belt...
No, you wouldn't be, because you don't trim the shoulder, you trim the case mouth only, which has no effect on rim to shoulder height.  You are ALWAYS headspacing on the shoulder when loading with fireformed, neck sized only brass.  Setting the shoulder back is something that happens in a FL sizing die when you have it screwed all the way down to contact the shellholder on the up stroke of your press ram.  It doesn't trim brass, it compresses it back.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

the tolerances for belted and non-belted cases should be no different...
They aren't, but I didn't say they were.  What I was referring to was how the case behaves when it contacts (headspaces on) the shoulder vs. the belt and why headspacing on the belt is inferior to the shoulder.
 
 


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:56
I thought I pointed this out on page one of this discussion. The objective to not pushing back the shoulder on a belted case is to headspace off the shoulder, therfore decreasing stress on the case. The end result has been longer case life and better accuracy.
Bottom line; FL resizing of belted cartridges does nothing to aid accuracy and reduces case life. I will take a concentric case that fills the chamber to a safe max versus one on the low side for accuracy any day. 
I have never been able to obtain the accuracy from factory belted ammo that I get from home rolled.
If I had my way these cases wouldn't have the belt. Even the .375 H&H can easily headspace of the shoulder without the rim. They do have a belt and we are stuck with them but they are still excellent cartridges that have stood the test of time.
 


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 04:02
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by timber timber wrote:

...Maybe that accounts for the reported higher incidence of extraction/ejection problems. 
 
There are no problems whatsoever with extracting WSM cases.  There can be problems with ejecting WSM cases, just due to the fact they are fat for their length, but not usually.  The main problem sometimes cited for the WSM cases is feeding from the magazine.  The combination of the fat case and short length means the round must travel up the feed ramp in a rather steep angle when chambering, so accommodations have to be made for widening the front portion of the feed rails to allow the rear portion of the case to pop out of the magazine earlier in the forward bolt travel and the feed ramp also must be modified from the normal profile used with standard short action rounds based on the .308 case.
 
Thanks for correcting me.  Knowledge of possible problems with ejecting and feeding of a WSM is important.  Manufacturers engineer different solutions for WSM parameters.   Perhaps the new Browning bolt action magazine is a response to this design challenge?
 
" A new detachable, rotary-design polymer magazine offers reliable feeding as each cartridge moves into perfectly centered alignment with the chamber."
 
http://www.browning.com/eblast/archive/eblast1007.htm - http://www.browning.com/eblast/archive/eblast1007.htm
 
As to the belted vs. non-belted comparison I have thoroughly enjoyed and learned much from the technical conversation here.  Ballistic Tables show much duplication of performance with the two (excepting perhaps the non-belted super mags), notwithstanding potential/realized accuracy differences.  
 
The seemingly endless variety of new chamberings moves the sport forward, including the debates that ensue.  It's all good. 


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 05:25
I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags.  He also told me that he has flared the top of 200 magazines for customers to allow proper chamber feeding for these cartridges, as he believes there is nothing inherently wrong with them, but the actions and magazines being used were not designed specifically for these cartridges.  After flaring the top of the magazines, the cartridge is allowed to move up without having to make a steep angle to the chamber and having the bolt grab it incorrectly and jam it.  He also stated, which I have not verified, that Rem. only chambers one model in the short mags. because of the above noted problems.  

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:00

magazines that allow straight line feeding, have at least one of 2 short fall, they must be removed from the gun to be loaded or they cannot be fed from the top. Steyer has been doing this for 30 years in their guns, and one of the reasons,I think they aren't as popular in the US.

Dolophin did the smith say exactly how manufactures where reworking their actions. Have a 223 WSSM and I can't tell any difference. (then of course this one may not need it.)



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:12
actually remington chambers more than one short mag they are doing the 270wsm 7rsum 300wsm and 300rsum

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags. 
 
That one isn't flying with me
 

 

Maximum Pressure ( in PSI UNLESS NOTED )

 

Recommended By SAAMI

7mm WSM

-

65,000

 

7mm Remington Magnum

-

61,000

 

7mm Weatherby Magnum

 

65,000

 



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 08:30
thats a great table doug, its intresting that the wsm and the ultra mags have equal pressures but the ultra is a lot bigger of a caase with more capacity.

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:21
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I spoke to a gunsmith yesterday who stated that all of the major manufactures, minus Wby. are having to rework their actions to withstand the extra pressures of the short mags. 
 
 If your gunsmith did indeed say that, don't buy any real estate from that guy!  That's a bunch of crap.  First of all, there are no "extra pressures" involved, and the modifications to the actions chambering them involve magazine, feed rail, ramp geometry and bolt face diameter mods, all of which aren't strength enhancements, but case geometry accommodations.  Secondly, Weatherby only chambers 2 of the short mags, and not in the Mark V, but in the Vanguard, and the Vanguard is nothing special; it's just a dressed up Howa 1500.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

He also told me that he has flared the top of 200 magazines for customers to allow proper chamber feeding for these cartridges
 
That's true, as I mentioned above, if I'm understanding what you mean by "flare."  But you don't have to do any modifications on new actions specifically designed for short mags.  If you are converting a .308 case-based short action to a short mag, you have to widen the front half of the feed rails to allow the case to release from the magazine before the shoulder is above the feed ramp, widen the ramp a little, install a wider magazine box, enlarge the bolt face counterbore, and install a different extractor.  All of that isn't worth the effort and cost in my opinion, when you can just buy an action designed around a short mag to begin with.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

He also stated, which I have not verified, that Rem. only chambers one model in the short mags. because of the above noted problems.  
As Pyro stated, that's b.s. too, as they offer the M7 and a couple different variations of the M700 in short mags.
 
I wouldn't let this guy do any work for you.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:29
the way i understand it they just made a special follower to help fix the problem with the magazine

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:41
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the way i understand it they just made a special follower to help fix the problem with the magazine
I forgot to mention the different follower; you are correct, but you also have to install a wider box as well or you will only have a 2 round magazine capacity because of the diameter of the cases.
 
The other option for magazine / feeding enhancement is the one Dale mentions.  There is at least one aftermarket magazine box conversion I'm aware of that converts your staggered feed magazine box and follower to a center feed design so the round doesn't have to feed from the magazine at a compound angle, but again, it reduces magazine capacity to 2 down.


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:43
it only takes one ted especially with a magnum. well as long as the shooter does there part

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:46
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1405&title=EXTENDED%20MAGAZINE%20BOX - http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1405&title=EXTENDED%20MAGAZINE%20BOX

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:52
BTW, for those who are interested, the aftermarket magazine box and follower I was referring to that converts your magazine from stagger feed to center feed with the WSM's is made by Wyatt's Outdoor.  To my knowledge, they only offer the WSM models for the Rem M700 and M7. 
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1405&title=EXTENDED+MAGAZINE+BOX - http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1405&title=EXTENDED+MAGAZINE+BOX
 


-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: RifleDude
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:53
Sorry, Pyro, I was posting the same link as you at the same time.

-------------
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 09:56
thats funny ted i beat you to a punch i should go buy a lottery ticket for sat. drawing! lucky that was

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:32
Hopefully this hasn't been covered before and/or isn't too far off topic.  I'd like to ask about WSM's and barrel lengths.  I don't have the terminology so help me out here.
 
I was talking to one gun dealer about WSM's recently.  He used to competively shoot and said the short magnums in part came from the idea of shooters experimenting (successfully) with same.  The idea was to get a consistent burn from shot to shot and that was accomplished to a greater degree with the 'shorts' compared to longer cartridges.  He further said that pressures and burn times were essentially the same with standard length and short versions of the same powder capacity (and caliber of course).
 
From this he concluded that rifle barrel lengths could only be shortened by the same amount as the shorter casing to have equal performance to a longer casing with the same powder capacity.  In other words if, for example, a 300 WSM was approximately 1/2" shorter tha say a 300 win mag then the rifle barrel should only be shortened by 1/2" to maintain equal performance.  Is this true?  If so then all those 23" and 24" 300 WSM barrels are too short compared to a 26" 300 win mag.  That would also explain why subjectively too me they are louder and have more muzzle blast/flash than the old belted's with 26" barrels.
 
 


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 12:39
what the whole deal with the short fat powder colums is that its suppose to give a more uniform burn which is suppose to translate to be accuracy with less powder and still have equal performance to the belted long actions, and they say they can do it with a shorter barrel which like you said is in that 20-24" range, i have a hard time buying it myself but im not an expert and who knows if the guys doing the magzine articles and testing of these arent paid off to say they can, but to me its seems like the shorter the barrel is the slower its going to be able to push a bullet, and also the less amount of time it has to stabilize a bullet

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 13:00
As the shock wave propgates from the primer it passes through the powder mass and is reflected back to the center of the charge by the angle of the shoulder. Hopefully the meeting place is somewhere in the middle of the case, In shorter BR cases and the wsm type stuff this works in a more ideal case than longer cases. Whether it is advantageous is subject to the quality of the remaining parts, If the rest of the gun can't take advantage of it any gain is for naught.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:09
okay so now that we have made it this far, can some one tell me what they were thinking when the designed the .284 winchester?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:13
its the guns in this case, need a cooper in a 26in, single action to seat the bullets out, probably duplicate 7mm without the belt.
original rd. was intended for short box magazines in repeaters.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:16
yeah but it fell short of the 7mm performance it didnt equal up to a .280rem

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:43
but it does outperform a 308 which is its magazine size


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:43
yeah but was it as accurate?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 14:55
in the gun it was designed for, personally I'm suprized not to see the 284 used more in tactical type rifles that use the 308.


Posted By: Argie
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 15:56
To round up the "belted/unbelted" cartidge discussion:
Belts don't make "stronger" cases, on the contrary, they weaken the cartridge-gun system.
Why? Because steel is stronger than brass and in order to fit the belted shell in the chamber you have to remove a ring of steel, just in the place where pressures are higher.
But you still find gun writers repeating this wrong notion.Wink


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/14/2007 at 17:58
Hey Dale can you elaborate on the 'shock wave' created when a round is fired.  I vaguely remember reading an article about this and it seemed logical.  But I can't remember the specifics.  Thanks.
 
And Dale what do you think about the shorter barrels used with the WSM's?  Is this defeating the magnum powder capacity of the WSM's?  Is it just a marketing scheme?


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 07:28
when we think of terms like flame front, it is typcially something like the flame you would see sitting around the campfire, but its not-- its a condition of vibration at a very high frequency, and this vibration has the ability to make the bonds in the molecules vibrate much faster than usual, past a condition called the activation energy and this vibration breaks the bonds and allows the individual molecules to cascade down an energy scale. The "flame" that is observed is the atom's electron coming back down from the activation as releasing photons in the process in the range of electromagnetic energy we call light. This shock wave has all the properties of traveling waves, amplitude, phase, frequency, and wavelength and as such they can be "manipulated".
shorter barrels and wsm are good, but the bigger question is what does any improvement mean in a device that is antiquated. ie bolt actions. In this regard i think it is a marketing scheme, my big complaint is one less round in the mag. The nature of the scheme, or with all the long mags in the distribution system ensures their longevity. Not to knock weatherbys -- but do you see any other manufacturers making rifles with their rounds? Personally my next project in this area is a wsm in 7mm AR10 with a carbon fiber barrel, from christensen.


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 12:58
How about a 375 Ruger necked down to the 30 or the 338? Have a feeling thats a coming!!

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 13:17
they already did squeeze thats what the new ruger short mags are based off
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/hornady_110107/index1.html - http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/hornady_110107/index1.html


-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 18:38
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

As the shock wave propgates from the primer it passes through the powder mass and is reflected back to the center of the charge by the angle of the shoulder. Hopefully the meeting place is somewhere in the middle of the case, In shorter BR cases and the wsm type stuff this works in a more ideal case than longer cases. Whether it is advantageous is subject to the quality of the remaining parts, If the rest of the gun can't take advantage of it any gain is for naught.
 
In this last sentence are you refering to barrel length, quality or specifications of the barrel or something else?
 
I read your deeper explanation of 'shock wave'.  Thanks for taking the time to explain although I can't say I understand all of it.  You are saying that these shorter cases do in fact promote this ideal 'shock wave' event and therefore potentially can be one factor in a more accurate rifle.  But to take advantage of this you have to have superior rifle specifications/components.  Is that a correct reading? 
 
Forgive me for harping on this but does the shorter length barrels commonly found with the WSM's negate any advantage to this ideal shock wave (namely improved potential accuracy) and does it significantly affect their muzzle velocity/energy?  Or to put it even more succinctly, should ALL magnums have long barrels (say 26" or more) and the shorter barrels (say 24" and less) should be left to the standards?
 


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 18:56
The barrel length won't have any effect on what Dale is explaining on the primer shock wave through the powder charge. Actually barrel length will have an effect on barrel harmonics, a different wave of movement as the bullet travels down the barrel. Benchrest shooters capitalize on the short fat cartridge designs but also tend to use 20-21" barrels except in very long range applications. Short stiff barrels have tighter harmonics that are easier to tune the projectile departure to with powder charge and oal tuning. You simply need enough barrel to utilize the bulk of your powder charge, and achieve the velocity you are looking for within reason. Read the short barrel 30 caliber thread....especially the posts by Big Squeeze.

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:02
Pyro...............Those new Ruger short mags are not the same dimensions in length as the Ruger 375 casing. They are based on the 375 Ruger, but are shorter in length then the actual 375 Ruger casing!!!! What I was referring to was the same length, width, everything, with the exception of caliber diameter!!! 

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:07
right i take it i forgot to say they sawed the 375 case down huh? well im thinking if they made something like that in the full length case wouldnt be about like the rem ultra mag?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Big Squeeze
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:52
Yeah!!!..........They can call it the.....300 and 338 Ruger Ultra Mag. That would be interesting to chrono a full sized 375 Ruger necked down to .30!!! The ballistics would be close the 300RUM I`d bet! 

-------------
300 WSM/375 Ruger....."All science, is truly the study of God`s wonderful work!"..."Bad news for liberals, is good news for America!".."What liberals hate, I love!".."What liberals like, I despise!"


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/15/2007 at 21:52
oh im sure they would be close

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/16/2007 at 06:38
Not unless you have access to the powder and powder combos they are using. Like the high energy loads they are using duplex and special powders to achieve these better than normal velocities. At least everything I read leads me to believe this is the case. How much more case capacity do they actually have over a shortmag?

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/16/2007 at 19:59
it has only been recently last 10 years, that the manufacturing tolerances on commonly available reloading, gun building stuff has been tight enough to see benefits produced by shock wave placement within the cavity. Additionally there may be some other variable that will override the physical effects at some point in the internal ballistic cycle, like barrel harmonics as focus pointed out. In fact it is difficult to calculate the percentage contribution do to each part in the chain, that this the voodo part. Some physical parts are so over riding in their contribution (trued actions, straight barrels) that we take their contribution for granted in the search for "optimized" loads. I don't think large manufactures are particularly interested in optimizing anything, it would obsolete to many things in the cash cow. A really good example is the death of electonic primers, the perfect solution to the slow lock times on ar's -- but did you ever see a gun made with this feature????


Posted By: timber
Date Posted: December/16/2007 at 20:32
Thanks.  I'm going to generalize/summarize the basic themes (not the technicals) - please correct.  As I understand it there are many variables to accuracy and shock wave (or the internal ballistic cycle) is just one item on the list.  But it's not as important as the fundamentals like trued actions, lock times and straight barrels, etc.
 
Barrel lengths/designs are determined by the ultimate primary use and are a balance of many variables such as harmonics and powder charge but may be compromised by some marketing scheme.  Perhaps the WSM's have fallen prey to the latter and ideally would have the longer lengths of their belted counterparts to achieve superior ballistics?


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/16/2007 at 20:35
24" is the minimum length needed to gain all the (benefits) of the wsm calibers

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/19/2007 at 17:01
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

when we think of terms like flame front, it is typcially something like the flame you would see sitting around the campfire, but its not-- its a condition of vibration at a very high frequency, and this vibration has the ability to make the bonds in the molecules vibrate much faster than usual, past a condition called the activation energy and this vibration breaks the bonds and allows the individual molecules to cascade down an energy scale. The "flame" that is observed is the atom's electron coming back down from the activation as releasing photons in the process in the range of electromagnetic energy we call light. This shock wave has all the properties of traveling waves, amplitude, phase, frequency, and wavelength and as such they can be "manipulated".
shorter barrels and wsm are good, but the bigger question is what does any improvement mean in a device that is antiquated. ie bolt actions. In this regard i think it is a marketing scheme, my big complaint is one less round in the mag. The nature of the scheme, or with all the long mags in the distribution system ensures their longevity. Not to knock weatherbys -- but do you see any other manufacturers making rifles with their rounds? Personally my next project in this area is a wsm in 7mm AR10 with a carbon fiber barrel, from christensen.
There are plenty of rifle makers that chamber their guns in Wby. calibers, specifically the 300.  Making a remark like that, is like saying, how many American rifle makers  chamber their rifles for the multiple metric cartridges which are very good.  Also, lets not all excited about this molecular bs.


-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/19/2007 at 17:09
ya, what the hell who needs chemistry


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 08:28
It's not that we do not need chemistry, but quite to the contrary.  But, the semi-scientific description given above does nothing to really explain what happens after the trigger is pulled, other than to let us know you have knowledge in the area of physics and possibly chemistry and maybe thermodynamics, which most of us already know that you do have.  Unfortunately, or fortunately, every aspect and discipline of physics any many of those of chemistry can be applied to interior, exterior and terminal ballistics.  The variable and multiple permutations applicable approach infinity, but basic principles still exist and are relatively sound.  However, even these can be approached in multiple different ways.  I think these are principles we can all agree on.

-------------
D. Overton


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 09:01
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

when we think of terms like flame front, it is typcially something like the flame you would see sitting around the campfire, but its not-- its a condition of vibration at a very high frequency, and this vibration has the ability to make the bonds in the molecules vibrate much faster than usual, past a condition called the activation energy and this vibration breaks the bonds and allows the individual molecules to cascade down an energy scale. The "flame" that is observed is the atom's electron coming back down from the activation as releasing photons in the process in the range of electromagnetic energy we call light. This shock wave has all the properties of traveling waves, amplitude, phase, frequency, and wavelength and as such they can be "manipulated".
shorter barrels and wsm are good, but the bigger question is what does any improvement mean in a device that is antiquated. ie bolt actions. In this regard i think it is a marketing scheme, my big complaint is one less round in the mag. The nature of the scheme, or with all the long mags in the distribution system ensures their longevity. Not to knock weatherbys -- but do you see any other manufacturers making rifles with their rounds? Personally my next project in this area is a wsm in 7mm AR10 with a carbon fiber barrel, from christensen.
There are plenty of rifle makers that chamber their guns in Wby. calibers, specifically the 300.  Making a remark like that, is like saying, how many American rifle makers  chamber their rifles for the multiple metric cartridges which are very good.  Also, lets not all excited about this molecular bs.




The .300 Wby has been a classic American caliber for some time. I believe the Remington 700 Classic even came in it.
I love all this science and it excites me Wink


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 10:00

good to see everybodies in christmas spirits this morning, especially so early, (before taking our meds). The depth of any technical subject on the internet can only be so involved, before everyone starts checking out. Just tried to keep it simple for you Dolophin.

a custom rifle maker will make any rifle one wants, but, my reference was more to the large manufacturers, In todays market there isn't anything really distinct about any one single cartridge or group, and I'm sure the 300 RUM, in light of Remingtons marketing efforts, will over shadow most in this catagory.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 10:45
so you think that the 300rum will outlive the 300wby in mass production efforts correct?

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: Focus
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 10:57
I don't think the ultra mags and a majority of the short mags will exist that long in todays market. Everything is based on demand and sales numbers so many new and perhaps excellent offerings will simply fail to capture market share and thus will be not be a viable offering. Reloaders and custom barrel makers will keep these calibers alive in much the same way that older chamberings exist now. As long as brass can be produced in some way the odder or less popular chamberings will still continue to exist, just maybe not so much in mass produced rifle offerings. You can still own and shoot 219 zippers, 218 bees, mashburn magnums, and many other hardly ever talked about wildcats and early chamberings. If you really look at the currently mass produced chambering offerings.......its a pretty dull and bland group of old stand-bys offered......but because of where we live and the number of shooters....there is a great number of offerings available with just a little custom work or chambering. Makes me want to go out and build a less used chambering....just because I can :>)

Focus

-------------
I Can See Clearly Now......<><

If Accurate rifles Are Interesting.....I've Got Some Savages That Are Getting Mighty Interesting......


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 11:26
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

so you think that the 300rum will outlive the 300wby in mass production efforts correct?
 
The .416 may be calling the RUM grandson and I bet the .300 Wby calls him son. Though, the RUM can kick his dads ass!Wink
I hope they all stick around so that we we can all tango...................yeah!


Posted By: Dale Clifford
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 13:34

remingtons offering of three power levels for the 300 certainly gives the impression that they are trying to tone down the recoil, wear, and make it attractive to a wider range of shooters. americans have always been in love with the 30's so I doubt any will disappear soon. As to the variety, we can all thank Starline for their support. It would nice if someone worked on the delivery system.



Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 14:19
well put dale, i agree with you that the .308 cals are very strong here, and always will be

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: mogambo
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 15:09
Guess the bottom line is that they all work and market segementation is the engine that fuels the economy. All I know is that a minty 300 winmag or weatherby can be bought for less than a new 30 caliber whatever magnum and will probably be a better made gun. I just missed a Mk V Lazermark 300 WM with a 2.5-8 VX III for $1000. That's only a tad more than a plastic stocked 700 with no scope in 300 rumdum. Nothing you shoot would know the difference and it's pretty enough to hang on the wall.


Posted By: pyro6999
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 15:15
im not much of a lazermark fan, take away the laser checkering and that is one sweet piece of wood

-------------
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"


Posted By: tahqua
Date Posted: December/25/2007 at 17:18
Same here, classic Mark V ja, Lazermark nein. A deal is a deal and that one is close enough to persuade otherwise.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: December/27/2007 at 08:06
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

good to see everybodies in christmas spirits this morning, especially so early, (before taking our meds). The depth of any technical subject on the internet can only be so involved, before everyone starts checking out. Just tried to keep it simple for you Dolophin.

a custom rifle maker will make any rifle one wants, but, my reference was more to the large manufacturers, In todays market there isn't anything really distinct about any one single cartridge or group, and I'm sure the 300 RUM, in light of Remingtons marketing efforts, will over shadow most in this catagory.

Thanks DC, I have limited mental capabilities.Smile  Merry Christmas to you and your family.  All in good fun and conversation.


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D. Overton



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