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pulsar core rxq30v vs atn thor 4 384

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JimFromTN View Drop Down
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    Posted: May/14/2020 at 08:58
I think I come on here about every 6 months or so and ask about night vision scopes but I am really going to do it this time.  I am going to break down and buy a thermal scope before next season.  I have convinced myself to spend as much as $2k.  I have narrowed it down to the 2 scopes mentioned because they are the only ones I can find in that price range.  The pulsar seems like it has a proven track record where as the ATN is new but has gotten some good initial reviews and has a few extra bells and whistles I don't really need.  Any advice on either or something else in that price range would be appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2020 at 10:34
Kickboxer's review of the ATN

Check this out, when you have a minute.

I have no time with either, but do lots of low light work. My thoughts on thermal are spend as much as you can on the features you want and avoid features you don't want or care about (they usually drain battery.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimFromTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2020 at 10:47
I have looked into that scope but never could find any reviews because it was so new so I was reluctant because of all the initial issues they had with their digital day/night scopes which I have heard are great scopes now.  I didn't want to have to help them work the bugs out.  At least not without a considerable discount.  If they got the bugs out before sending it to production then I would definately jump on it if its comparable to scopes that are twice the price.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2020 at 11:32
You won't like hearing it, but if you have convinced yourself to spend $2k, do not spend it on night vision or thermal.  Good stuff starts higher than that.  Prices are coming down, but they are not quite there yet.

Another factor to consider is that while I am generally not terribly particular where most things are made, thermal made in China bothers me a little bit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimFromTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2020 at 12:39
The problem is that I bought a leupold lto tracker hand held thermal and took it hog hunting.  I saw more hogs than I ever have hog hunting.  As a result, I realized that I missed probably a half a dozen oportunites because all I had was a scope with a light on it.  I found that lights on scopes work great if you are sitting on bait and they come in and start feeding.  They don't work so great when the hog is on the move.  Everyone I tried the light with, took off running the second the light hit them.  The only reason I knew the hogs were on the move was because I saw them with the hand held thermal.  I don't see any reason to go hog hunting without a thermal scope. I could go with one of the less expensive digital scopes but I hunt swamps and IR's don't work as well in heavy cover.  

Don't get me wrong.  I understand what you are saying but I will never be able to justify spending more than $2K on a thermal.  I am having a hard enough time justifying $2k.  I would have to move somewhere where I could hunt them allot more than I do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2020 at 07:37
I live in Texas, where hogs are plentiful. I hog hunt often, almost always with thermal. I have 3 FLIR scopes, but FLIR has recently announced they are no longer offering thermal scopes for the civilian market; military sales only.

I’ve been told by some local dealers that now that FLIR and Armasight is out of the picture, the only “affordable” brands worth buying currently is Pulsar and Trijicon (and most would consider Trijicon thermals to be well beyond “affordable”).

I have no hands on experience with either Pulsar or ATN thermal scopes beyond short viewing time in a couple of ATN Thors that a buddy once owned. Personally, I would avoid ATN because the aforementioned buddy has had 2 of their scopes and both developed a blank red screen on power-up in a short time period.

Koshkin is correct. Unfortunately, the decent thermal scopes currently start at around $2500. By “decent” I mean scopes that have sufficient resolution to make precision shots on animals (not just detect them; resolve sufficient detail to place shots in the vitals) at moderate distance. 

I would not go below a 320 core scope. All of mine are 320, and I consider them to be just adequate for the 100 yards and under that defines my typical shot distances. Under ideal conditions of colder weather and low humidity, they are even pretty decent. At times, I can make precision shots out to about 200 yards (with my 4x base mag FLIR PTS 536) when weather conditions are ideal. Much beyond 200, and I can clearly see living critters, but cannot resolve enough detail to ID the species, much less precisely place shots. I would much prefer a 640 core scope, but those units cost more than I was willing to pay.

All of my scopes are 60hz. I wouldn’t go below 30hz, as critter movement will become too “jumpy.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2020 at 16:57
I suggest try to look at a few in varying cost bins.  Your eyes will tell you what you NEED.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2020 at 00:46
I wish there were an easy way to do that, but unfortunately there isn’t. You can’t really evaluate thermal optics in a store. This fact is even more true than with conventional optics. The only real way to evaluate them is to actually use them in the field under varying conditions while hunting live critters. Unless you go on a hunt sponsored by some outfit with multiple thermal scopes you can use and compare, or you’re a blogger or outdoor gear writer with significant enough influence, or you’ve got some wealthy friends...it’s gonna be real tough getting your hands on multiple units at $2k and up a pop and get useful trigger time behind them. 

That said, the specs tell you most of what you really need to know. Higher pixel count = better resolution, all else being equal. Higher res is always better...100% of the time, without exception. Higher Hz refresh is always better, 100% of the time, without exception. Higher display resolution is likewise always better. Ocular and/or objective focus is always better than fixed focus. Base magnification should be matched to the expected shot distances and type of hunting you do because zooming is always done digitally, not optically. Image quality always degrades when zoomed because doing so only enlarges pixels, making the image pixelated, not really more detailed. 

Thermal optics is one product category where you truly do “get what you pay for.” If it retails for less than about $2500, it is severely compromised in some way. In a few years, that may no longer hold true, but today it does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2020 at 15:57
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I wish there were an easy way to do that, but unfortunately there isn’t. You can’t really evaluate thermal optics in a store. This fact is even more true than with conventional optics. The only real way to evaluate them is to actually use them in the field under varying conditions while hunting live critters. Unless you go on a hunt sponsored by some outfit with multiple thermal scopes you can use and compare, or you’re a blogger or outdoor gear writer with significant enough influence, or you’ve got some wealthy friends...it’s gonna be real tough getting your hands on multiple units at $2k and up a pop and get useful trigger time behind them. 

That said, the specs tell you most of what you really need to know. Higher pixel count = better resolution, all else being equal. Higher res is always better...100% of the time, without exception. Higher Hz refresh is always better, 100% of the time, without exception. Higher display resolution is likewise always better. Ocular and/or objective focus is always better than fixed focus. Base magnification should be matched to the expected shot distances and type of hunting you do because zooming is always done digitally, not optically. Image quality always degrades when zoomed because doing so only enlarges pixels, making the image pixelated, not really more detailed. 

Thermal optics is one product category where you truly do “get what you pay for.” If it retails for less than about $2500, it is severely compromised in some way. In a few years, that may no longer hold true, but today it does.
We have no difference on the FACT that higher pixel count equals higher resolution.  What we disagree on is that "anything in the $2000.00 range or less is not worth having".   That is NOT a fact.   The Pulsar Core RXQ30V is pretty impressive (in my case it was not available from SWFA for 90 days or more and I could not wait that long).  However, after getting and using the ATN ThOR LT (which is less capable(according to the ads) than the ATN ThOR 4 384) I am terribly sorry for you if you cannot get good ID at 100 yards with your 320x240 thermal scope.  I can at 150+ yards get excellent discrimination between small critters such as mice, opossum, and armadillo and larger critters such as foxes and raccoons (which I observed last night/this morning 1130-0030 having a "discussion" over which would have some bit of food that they were contesting over... the raccoon actually won, surprised me, the fox sat and watched the 'coon eat for a bit and walked off).  Deer are very easy to ID, I have no doubt I could pick out a hog (there just aren't any where I live).  There are a lot of factors that go into the equations of DRI, I guess eyesight being one.   Separation in temperature of target vs "background" is primary.  I will note that in the timeframe that I was observing the quarrel between the fox and raccoon, I also tried to acquire my 100 yard and 100 meter targets... temperature differential was then so narrow (target temp vs background temp) that I had to move in to 75 yards in order to "see"(differentiate) the targets/target frames in relation to the background... it was fuzzy, but the targets were identifiable.  I have no doubt that a higher resolution thermal optic would have given me the ability to remain at 100 yards.  Still, with living, breathing, blood pumping creatures, I had no difficulties.  ATN claims 240 yards (ThOR LT) for ID of a "human" target.  I have no actual data on that, have not had occasion to engage a human target, but, based upon observed data, I believe that might be pretty close.  
My poor, CHEAP ( and therefore worthless to some) thermal scope does EXACTLY what I need at the range/s I intended.  I would probably have purchased the Pulsar, because I had no reason not to, had it been available... it delivers 110,592 pixels(which is better, resolution-wise, than your 320x240 which only has 76,800 pixels and I expect cost nearly double) compared to my measly 19,600 at 3x and better at its highest power than mine is at lowest power... but the ThOR LT still does exactly what I NEED for it to do at high and low powers.  If I need to go to war, or discriminate at ranges in the thousands of meters, I'll just go buy a 640x480+ array thermal imaging scope... if you need it, get it.
However, the OP stated he had a HARD $2000.00 limit.  To tell him his money at that price range is wasted is specious.  There are not many, but there are a few that meet his stated need and seem to do so quite well. 
As for a store not being a good place to evaluate a thermal optic... since it works equally well in daylight and complete dark, I have some disagreement with that statement.  The only real limitation is resolution at distance.  I have several places that if I leave them a DL copy and CC they will let me take any scope they have on display and as long as I don't try to mount it on a rifle I can do pretty much what I please with it... most thermal optics serve pretty equally well as "just" a thermal "camera" or as a rifle scope... now, the stores don't have huge inventories, but they do occasionally run across items of interest to me.  There are some "online" stores that, as long as you return the scope to them UNMOUNTED and "as shipped" condition, you can look them over for 10-30 days.  Some may require a "restocking fee" and they generally don't cover shipping unless there is a fault (but it's cheaper than making a purchase and might save some money down the line).  However, if you need it "yesterday", reviews, specifications and some website discussions are the only inputs you can go by.  
I have a specific need for a thermal... it requires being able to ID a specific target within a specific range... bounded by the limits of "my property" where average "shooting range" is 100 yards or under(usually under)... the ATN ThOR LT does an excellent job for me, so far.  If it holds up, it was well worth not spending extra money.  If it fails, the warranty will cover the failure and I will either get another or upgrade.  I'm not in a "life or death" situation and just love to test things for their adherence to their claims and for their utility to the consumer.  
I had a $7000.00 FLIR fail to serve on a hog hunt... supposedly brand new, even the outfitter could not ID targets at less than 100 yards, too "fuzzy" and could not be adjusted to resolve the issues.  
Sometimes you DON'T get what you pay for...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2020 at 02:51
Dan, I hog hunt exclusively with thermals about 75 days a year and have been for 6 years now. I am offering advice on the topic based on doing the very activity the OP inquired about. I didn’t say sub-$2500 thermals weren’t worth having; I said I believe at present, the decent stuff that really work well for the intended use cited start somewhere around that price point. The $2k units of today are probably equivalent to the $5k units of 10 years ago. My only reply to you in the above post was the point that it’s pretty difficult to “try before you buy” with thermal scopes. Few dealers carry them, even those that do usually have few units in stock at any given time, even the “inexpensive” models are pretty expensive, and you really have to take them out hunting in varying conditions to really get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses. The rest was really my advice intended for the OP.

Today, the thermal manufacturers have developed digital image enhancement technologies that have significantly improved the image quality achieved from 320 and 380 px sensor units. They don’t quite compare to 640 core units, but they are remarkably good compared to what was achievable only about 5 years ago. 2 of my 3 FLIRs (PTS series) have their so-called “Boson” cores with “digital detail enhancement” which shows a fairly significant IQ improvement over the previous gen FLIR and Armasight units. 

I’m glad you’re happy with your ATN scope, hope you continue to be, and hope it gives you many years of good service. I personally don’t trust ATN because of the experience of a friend who had 2 of them fail, I personally know of a dealer who stopped carrying ATN because they had a high rate of returns, and the fact they’re made in China. They may be great products now, I don’t know. I don’t get emotionally invested in inanimate objects and have zero brand loyalty, but I’m averse to spending my money on things I don’t trust will continue working for a reasonable lifespan.

I’ve used a couple 240 core scopes, and I found them to be severely lacking in resolution, frustratingly so. After using my 320 core scopes at 1.25x, 1.5x, and 4x base magnification for hog and predator hunting since I bought my first from Ilya 6 years ago, I feel I have a pretty good idea of what works and why. Maybe my eyesight isn’t as good as yours, but 320 core scopes have the minimum resolution that I’ve found to be useable for a serious hunting rig. I would love to have 640 px sensor scopes, but I’m not willing to spend the $ they command...today. Sensor resolution by itself doesn’t tell the whole story. It’s how sensor resolution works together with screen resolution and color palettes, image enhancement technologies, base magnification, and image adjustment menu features that together determine how well you can resolve target detail. 

I tried to offer what I feel is solid advice to the OP based on a significant amount of actual experience doing the exact activity he is wanting to do. If you disagree with me, that’s fine, but I would encourage you to take your scope out hog hunting for a few months and then see if your opinion remains unchanged. If so, fantastic; you’ve saved a lot of money. Rock on! I don’t want to spend any more than I have to either. I truly wish I could find a good, dependable high performance thermal scope I could be happy with for <$1800 and that I could in good conscience recommend to others without reservation.

Graham has or had an Armasight Predator 336, a similar class scope spec-wise to those I own. Ask him if he agrees with what I just said. Or Koshkin. Or CF or CFII at SWFA. 

So my advice for the OP on a $2k hard limit... the Pulsar RXQ30V looks pretty good on paper, and I know 2 guys that have Pulsar scopes that are very happy with them. One is on my hunting lease, but his Pulsar cost him $4500. If I were him, I might take the plunge on it. That’s if he thinks he will be able to do some hunts soon and needs a thermal now. On the other hand, I believe that we’re on the cusp of seeing sub-$2k thermals with the same performance level of current $3k class scopes in the very near future, so I can’t help but think that maybe patience will pay off.




Edited by RifleDude - May/17/2020 at 15:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2020 at 08:08
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I am terribly sorry for you if you cannot get good ID at 100 yards with your 320x240 thermal scope.

I didn’t say that. 

Qualifying what I did say involves more explanation than I’m willing to commit to, because “it depends.” Discrimination between similar size and shape animals at a given distance depends on much more than sensor resolution ...base optical magnification, ambient temp, humidity, display res (not to be confused with sensor res), etc.

[Kickboxer]Well, the weather conditions here are very similar.  I CAN discriminate at the distances for which I am concerned.  Average humidity around here, since I've have the ThOR LT has been above 70% (it's 98% today) with temperatures from low 60's to low 80's.  Have not had any problems discriminating animals of numerous types at beyond 100 yards, but at my place I cannot, without a lot of effort,  get beyond 150 and usually have to climb a tree to do that.  I have not taken it off property yet.   

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I have no doubt I could pick out a hog (there just aren't any where I live).  
I’m not speaking theoretically and am not guessing. I lease 4500 acres that are loaded with hogs and hunt them year-round with multiple thermal scopes, and have been using thermal exclusively for hog hunting (the very activity cited in the OP) since I got my first thermal 6 years ago. It involves way more than “picking out” when one is referring to putting crosshairs on an exact spot and discerning significant enough detail behind it, verifying for certain you’re not about to dispatch some kid’s German Shepherd by mistake.

[Kickboxer]You took the comment out of context, I CAN identify the target AND put the crosshair on an exact spot at the distances I am concerned with.  
I CAN do that with my scope, and I'm not "guessing" either.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Separation in temperature of target vs "background" is primary.  I will note that in the timeframe that I was observing the quarrel between the fox and raccoon, I also tried to acquire my 100 yard and 100 meter targets... temperature differential was then so narrow (target temp vs background temp) that I had to move in to 75 yards in order to "see"(differentiate) the targets/target frames in relation to the background... it was fuzzy, but the targets were identifiable.  

I’m pretty darn familiar with the problem. It’s hot and humid more often than not for most of the year here in TX.

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

ATN claims 240 yards (ThOR LT) for ID of a "human" target.  I have no actual data on that, have not had occasion to engage a human target, but, based upon observed data, I believe that might be pretty close.  

I have no doubt. Humans are vertical, not likely to ever be confused with 4-legged critters. 

[Kickboxer]Unless resolution is so poor you are only seeing "blobs"

ID’ing ain’t the same as placing a precise shot on a precise spot with ample detail observable in said spot.

[Kickboxer]See above... not an issue.  If I can ID a target, I can make a "humane" shot. 

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

My poor, CHEAP ( and therefore worthless to some) thermal scope does EXACTLY what I need at the range/s I intended.  

The OP asked about a specific application. I routinely do that very application being inquired about.

[Kickboxer]I've done a bit of hog hunting myself.  They are pretty easy to ID.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

the ThOR LT still does exactly what I NEED for it to do at high and low powers.  If I need to go to war, or discriminate at ranges in the thousands of meters, I'll just go buy a 640x480+ array thermal imaging scope... if you need it, get it.

Great...but non sequiturs.  

The thread is about hog hunting and close shot distances.

[Kickboxer]And at close shot distances, shooting hogs, either the Pulsar or the ATN ThOR 4 384 might perform just fine for him.  No doubt, as I've said, the larger arrayed and therefore more expensive scopes have more capability than the lower priced... nowhere have I argued that they don't.  That does not negate the fact that he should check some out before spending the money.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

However, the OP stated he had a HARD $2000.00 limit.  To tell him his money at that price range is wasted is specious.  There are not many, but there are a few that meet his stated need and seem to do so quite well.

I didn’t say that either, as a blanket statement without context. I'm sure there are scopes below that price point that serve a good valid purpose for some people. But, the discussion centered around hog hunting. For hunting, where placing ethical shots on critters you have 100% positively ID'ed and can discern the difference between a feral hog, a coyote, and someone's family dog at mid range distances (which in thermal terms is around 100 yards), I double down on that statement that thermal at that price point is not currently a wise use of funds. 

[Kickboxer]I disagree with your entire premise above, but I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it... just saying that some effort should be expended in trying to get some "hands on" with the lower end priced scopes (and if possible compare to the middle-priced) to see if they do or don't fit the buyer's requirements.  As long as this ATN ThOR LT doesn't just quit on me, I'm taking it hog hunting... and expect to do quite well.  

I do believe spending sub-$2k will ultimately prove unsatisfactory for the stated application (the very application I do often) in fairly short order. I also believe that the remedy for this dissatisfaction will set him back at least $2500, and I firmly stand by that statement until I see a unit that changes my mind. Even “cheap” thermals are expensive, and buying twice certainly exceeds his hard budget. This is sound advice whether you like hearing it or not. I cannot in good conscience recommend something I would never buy myself.

{Kickboxer]I'm not recommending anything... except try to get some hands on and see for himself.  It may prove that the lower end scopes would be unsatisfactory for the OP's purposes, but maybe not.  He should be the decider.  My biggest concerns about both the Pulsar and the ATN would be longevity.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

As for a store not being a good place to evaluate a thermal optic... since it works equally well in daylight and complete dark, I have some disagreement with that statement.  The only real limitation is resolution at distance.

Complete nonsense. Bad advice. It just is, there’s no way to sugar coat it.  

[Kickboxer]For someone with your limited experience in usage of thermal optics that may be true.  I've been working with and evaluating thermal optics of all types since 1985 (IOC and FOC of FLIR for F/A-18 A/B/C/D) and was the Deputy Program Manager and Test Director of one of the largest MASINT programs in DoD for three years.  In the meantime, I  have evaluated aircraft, naval vessel, and ground vehicle mounted systems (both overseas and "at home") as well as "personal" (observer monocular and personal weapon mounted) systems, tested in desert, jungle, "European", air and sea environments.  I have more experience with thermal imaging systems than you ever will.  Inside a building, though environment is fairly stable and you may have to search for complete darkness, you can get some performance indicators that will tell you if you want to take it outside... outside in bright sun you can get some very good data on performance.  I spent several years running 24/7 tests 6-8 weeks at a time 5 or 6 times a year... I generally only put in about 18 hours a day, but varied my time on test so I was there for all the transition types with shortwave, midwave and longwave IR.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I have several places that if I leave them a DL copy and CC they will let me take any scope they have on display and as long as I don't try to mount it on a rifle I can do pretty much what I please with it...

Which tells you almost nothing about the suitability of the optic in question for the stated application as it doesn’t factor most of the important elements that have significant impact on the optic’s suitability for the task at hand. That “mount it on a rifle” part is pretty freakin critical. That’s an awfully expensive gamble. Again, I’m not guessing. 

[Kickboxer]Mounting it on a rifle is NOT critical to evaluate the operational conditions it will be used under... any thermal rifle scope can be used as an observation device.  I spent several hours, at different times of day, with the ThOR LT before mounting it to the rifle and got a very good feel for its capabilities.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I have a specific need for a thermal... it requires being able to ID a specific target within a specific range... bounded by the limits of "my property" where average "shooting range" is 100 yards or under(usually under)... the ATN ThOR LT does an excellent job for me, so far.

Great! The OP asked about a specific application that you cannot duplicate on your property, by your own admission. I happen to do the activity being inquired about very often. I offered advice based on what I’ve observed from a lot of hands-on experience with same and from shared experience of 7 other guys I hunt with who own thermals, who have come to similar conclusions.

[Kickboxer]Just because I cannot duplicate the hunting situation on my property does not take away from the fact that I have performed the hunting type in question numerous times.  And I have more than sufficient background experience to "compare" to.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

If it holds up, it was well worth not spending extra money.  If it fails, the warranty will cover the failure and I will either get another or upgrade.  I'm not in a "life or death" situation and just love to test things for their adherence to their claims and for their utility to the consumer.  

You don’t need to rationalize your purchases to anyone. If you’re happy, you got a great deal, and that’s all that matters.

[Kickboxer]Not rationalizing anything.  Just stating facts.  

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I had a $7000.00 FLIR fail to serve on a hog hunt... supposedly brand new, even the outfitter could not ID targets at less than 100 yards, too "fuzzy" and could not be adjusted to resolve the issues.

Anecdotes aren’t in short supply.  

[Kickboxer]That is true and your answers are filled with them.  

My whole point is that the OP should at least TRY to explore the lower cost scopes and evaluate for himself if one will meet his needs.  He said he had a hard limit, which led me to believe he was not in a position to save longer to purchase a higher priced optic... that could be wrong, but that's the way it seemed.  
I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to purchase either of the thermal optics the OP enquired about...  as you said, even the low cost thermals are darned expensive... one should check them out before purchasing.  People can provide information on what works for them... doesn't mean its right for anyone else.  




Edited by RifleDude - May/18/2020 at 14:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2020 at 15:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2020 at 16:09
Although this topic centers around 640 core scopes, it contains very good info pertinent to lower res scopes and does a good job of explaining the concepts important to understand with all thermals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2020 at 09:38
Dan, if you’re going to type over my posts rather than comment in your own post, it would be helpful if you’d change the color of the text you type or in some other way identify which comments are yours. Editing my post without identifying which comments are mine and which are yours is confusing for those seeking input on the topic.

Edit: Never mind, I did it.


Edited by RifleDude - May/18/2020 at 14:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2020 at 15:36
Dan,

Of course you can use a thermal scope hand-held. One of mine got relegated exclusively for that use so I wouldn't need to use my locked and loaded rifle for double duty as a thermal monocular to seek critters, a potentially dangerous practice. The question of handheld vs. firearm-mounted is not relevant to why I said you cannot truly evaluate a thermal scope in the store and why you really need to mount it on the gun you wish to hunt with and take it hunting to truly evaluate its capabilities.

The reasons it's critical to evaluate a thermal scope on a rifle are several. First, inside a store, you cannot really determine your "real world" effective range on the critters you intend to hunt in the environment you intend to hunt them. Even if the store owner lets you take it outside, you don't gain much more because you won't be looking at the actual animals you're hunting and compare them to other animals of similar size and shape. You won't be able to make comparisons of how well the optic works in ideal conditions vs. hot and humid weather. 

Civilian consumer class thermal scopes are overwhelmingly used for hunting "non-game" species, primarily feral hogs, and to a lesser degree, predators. Feral hogs share their world with deer and coyotes. They are frequently hunted on properties that also have cattle, and depending on how close you are to nearby neighborhoods, you may also encounter someone's pet dog or cat. Clear ID range is always much shorter than detection range, regardless of how good a given thermal's resolution is. It's usually fairly easy to distinguish between hogs and adult deer at the limits of ID range because the deer have longer necks and legs in proportion to their bodies and move differently. Ditto for feral hogs and cattle. If pigs are grouped together, they are of course much easier to ID. However, at some distance, it will be very tough to ID the difference between a small pig, a fawn in tall grass, a calf, a coyote, and someone's dog. If animals are encountered laying down or partially shielded behind foliage, it's even more difficult. The distance from you that this reality occurs will depend mostly on photobolometer resolution and base magnification of your scope. It's all a matter of how many pixels you can paste on top of the critter in question. The lower your scope's resolution and base optical magnification is, the closer critters need to be from you to be able to positively ID them. With the optic hand-held, there is no penalty if your ID is wrong. But when you're using it as your aiming device, you better damn well be certain you're about to squeeze the trigger on a pig rather than a rancher's calf, or a fawn outside of deer season, or someone's dog. Before you plop down a lot of money, you really need to see that for yourself. You cannot really know your effective range on any animal until you see that animal at different distances from you, in different environmental conditions. Scope performance improves at night when the sun isn't heating up rocks and foliage and there's a greater heat contrast between living things and the environment around them. That too influences effective range and you can't duplicate that inside the confines of a store.

Thermal scopes usually have significantly shorter optimal eye relief than a conventional scope because you're viewing a digital screen inside the eyepiece group. This can be a bit of a problem with some scope and rifle combinations and you really won't know if you'll have a mounting problem until you mount it. In addition, some of the QD mount systems that come with some thermal scopes can block the ejection port on bolt action rifles (though it usually isn't a concern mounted on ARs).

Without being mounted on a rifle, you won't know if the heat radiating from your barrel will contaminate your scopes IQ. That is directly related to mounting height, base magnification, how far the scope's objective housing extends beyond the lens, whether you're using a suppressor, etc.

So again Dan, you really cannot evaluate the performance of a thermal scope in a store, not for the characteristics that really count anyway. If we were talking a $300 investment then it would be an entirely different discussion. Given that the cheapest thermal scopes will still set you back at least $1500, that's an awfully expensive dice roll.

That doesn't mean that store evaluations are useless. In a store you can evaluate whether you like the form factor, get an impression of build quality to some extent, see if you like the reticle choices, menus, controls ease of use, etc. Those things are important too, but not the most important things for long term satisfaction of your expensive purchase.

The best plan for someone new to thermals narrowing down their choice is to seek the advice of someone you trust who has first hand experience with the products in your budget. There are a few stocking dealers who use the products they sell a lot and who will give you the benefit of their informed opinion if one seeks them out, especially in states over-run with hogs like Texas.

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

For someone with your limited experience in usage of thermal optics that may be true.  I've been working with and evaluating thermal optics of all types since 1985 (IOC and FOC of FLIR for F/A-18 A/B/C/D) and was the Deputy Program Manager and Test Director of one of the largest MASINT programs in DoD for three years.  In the meantime, I  have evaluated aircraft, naval vessel, and ground vehicle mounted systems (both overseas and "at home") as well as "personal" (observer monocular and personal weapon mounted) systems, tested in desert, jungle, "European", air and sea environments.  I have more experience with thermal imaging systems than you ever will.

But of course with all your vast experience in contrast to my woefully "limited experience," and given that uber high dollar military thermal equipment is sooooo strikingly similar to sub-$2K consumer level thermal scopes and thus has so much relevance to the latter, you already knew all the above. 

By the way, how many times have you hunted with a thermal scope and when was the last time? When was the last time you killed something behind a thermal? For me, it was as far back as 8pm last night, when I dropped a hog. 


Edited by RifleDude - May/18/2020 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2020 at 17:59
I know nada about thermal scopes. I’ve followed this thread anyway, mostly because it’s entertaining. I’ve got a cheap nightvision scope. It works but with many limitations. It’s a Sightmark Photon RT. It’s been reliable so far. I’ve used it sparingly for about 2 1/2 years.  After reading these threads I’m wondering if there is any advantage to owning thermal. I have the same issues with what I own and it costs far less. In brushy areas, the IR Illuminator causes shadows with zero visibility. Identifying targets beyond 100 yards is a lost cause. You usually have to get closer. Hogs aren’t too bad but I did stalk a calf once. The focus is finicky and needs constant adjustment. It eats batteries quick. I use it most often on FT Hood. It’s shotgun only there, so I don’t need really need anything with more range. I’m limited by the accuracy and range of a shotgun slug anyway. I corned a brushy valley there starting two weeks ago. I was actually hunting turkeys when I heard hogs fighting in a creek. I usually have corn in my truck so I scattered some, mixed with strawberry jello. Skipped a day then corned it again just before the last full moon. About 10:00 that night sows and piglets started showing up. I saw one big hog by itself and shot it. It ended up being a sow too, which is irritating. It was bright enough that I didn’t use my night vision. That’s sort of the point of my post, I guess. I used my Steiner binoculars and Slug gun with a Leupold FX3 6X42. I ordered it from the custom shop with gloss finish, CDS dial and a #4 reticle. It was initially on a CZ550 9.3X62 but got replaced by a Leica ERi. The Leupold  and my nightvision scope have Warne quick release rings so I can change them quickly.  I have some Trijicons and VXRs that are normally used for hog hunting, they are on different rifles. The #4 on the slug gun is good enough for its limited range anyway. I guess what my point is, if I even have one, is that it’s not fun to hunt with a night vision scope. At least not for me. I like to glass those fields and identify the animals and then stalk them for a shot. If my intent was to eradicate hogs, it’d be a different story. The night vision scope does allow me to hunt on dark nights. Sometimes I take advantage of having it, but it’s never as enjoyable as using that full moon. To me, that’s the essence of hunting hogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2020 at 18:49
Where in Texas do you live, David? If you'd rather not say in this thread, you can PM me. I would be happy to let you hog hunt on my west TX property and get hands-on with few different thermals to compare any time you wish. I believe you will be impressed with their capability. You wouldn't need to bring anything; I've got you covered.

I go out there at least 2 weekends each month, sometimes more. Right now, I am furloughed at my job due to the Covid crap, so in the absence of a job to go to, I've spent the better part of the past 2 months doing nothing but hog hunting. If you're interested in going and can overlook my "limited experience in the usage of thermal optics," owning only 3 of them and hunting with them only 7-10 days of every month, I request that you give my dumb azz at least 20 minutes of advance notice of your plans, 'cause I'm really busy.Bucky
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2020 at 21:23
Ted, I did not say it was not necessary to mount it on a rifle to see how it performs on a rifle, just that evaluation of performance of the thermal scope itself does not depend on mounting on a rifle.  Certainly, OBVIOUSLY, you can't guarantee that the scope will work on a particular rifle without checking it out on the rifle (You can, however get a good idea. Visual inspection and measurement can tell you a lot and there are a lot of mounting options)... you can just guarantee that it will meet all your thermal scope performance requirements.   However, what do you do if you buy it, mount it and then discover that the thermal performance is not what you needed/wanted?  

I knew the edit would make you happy.
I killed two armadillos last night at just about 60 yards in heavy humidity.  Hated to do it, but they were tearing up an area we've been trying to get ready to plant.  The buzzards are happy.  I guess they qualify as "Hoover Hogs".  I've never eaten one.
I'm really glad you have the hogs to hunt.   Kind of glad I don't have any here.  However, you can invite me to hunt and you can make fun of my lousy scope as I help you reduce your herd.  Texas is way overpopulated with hogs.

As for the military gear... F/A-18 FLIR/TFLIR/ATFLIR were certainly the extremely high dollar.  The MASINT program was a "technology push" and many of the scopes we used were  R&D (read almost breadboard)... most cooled, a number of uncooled... many configurations.  Programs I did for AMRDEC involved commercial-off-the-shelf, so, yes, pretty high dollar in some cases.  Applications were varied.  

I believe there is utility for $2000.00 and under thermals based upon observed performance.  The Pulsar is/would have been better than my ATN, but the ATN is better than I thought it would be.  I don't feel cheated.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2020 at 07:24
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Where in Texas do you live, David? If you'd rather not say in this thread, you can PM me. I would be happy to let you hog hunt on my west TX property and get hands-on with few different thermals to compare any time you wish. I believe you will be impressed with their capability. You wouldn't need to bring anything; I've got you covered.

I go out there at least 2 weekends each month, sometimes more. Right now, I am furloughed at my job due to the Covid crap, so in the absence of a job to go to, I've spent the better part of the past 2 months doing nothing but hog hunting. If you're interested in going and can overlook my "limited experience in the usage of thermal optics," owning only 3 of them and hunting with them only 7-10 days of every month, I request that you give my dumb azz at least 20 minutes of advance notice of your plans, 'cause I'm really busy.Bucky

I live about 10 miles outside of Temple. About an hour north of Austin. I’d love to go! Keep me informed. I’ll IM you my number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimFromTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2020 at 09:21
I have been readng and researching what you all have said and really appreciate it.  The rifle that I use for hog hunting is a rem 700 in 35 whelen with a 22 inch barrel.  Its for swamps where shots are under 100 yds and followups are almost non-existent.  The recoil is kind of stout but not too unpleasant.   Should I be concerned with the recoil?  Allot of these thermals are only rated to 308.  I am considering a muzzle brake if it is an issue.
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