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Rabbit hole - NXS, Toric, Leupy or Swaro?

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CrazyEddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyEddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rabbit hole - NXS, Toric, Leupy or Swaro?
    Posted: January/15/2019 at 09:39
My search for a scope has gone off on so many tangents, but all due to additional great information (including in large part posts on this forum, and reviews by Koshkin and others). By way of background, this is going to be put on a Cooper 25-06 used primarily for hunting, where low light is critical. Ranges are *typically* under 200 yards, but I'd like to spend/cry once and have this scope serve as a longer-range option when the opportunity presents itself (for that or other rifles).

I've currently narrowed my choices down to the following, in order of price, with some pros and cons.  These all fall within about a $250 price range.
  • Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x56 - relatively light (22oz) and least expensive
  • Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 - very light (16oz), but only one not illuminated
  • Toric 4-20x50 - very heavy but awesome reviews, and incredible CR
  • NF NXS 3.5-15x50 - heavy, but super durable
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.  FWIW, I'm leaning towards the Toric.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bugsNbows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:30
I'd sacrifice the illumination and go light... Swaro. AAMOF, I had (and sold) a Cooper in 25-06. The first scope on it was a NXS. That thing wore my nabby azz out toting through the woods. A Swaro went on next.
Another option would be to find a Kahles KXi 3.5-10 x 50. I have one with the illuminated 4D dot. Awesome glass and not heavy (there aren't many 1" tubed illuminated scopes around). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:33
If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Scrumbag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:37
Get the Z5i...
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:51
Originally posted by Scrumbag Scrumbag wrote:

Get the Z5i...

Doesn't exist in the US (not sure about Europe).  Here, Swarovski only illuminates Z6, Z8 and X5.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 10:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:02
 Define how you hunt, please.  If this is a walk-about/stalker, your list is pretty wrong for the hunting type.  If it is a sit-in-a-stand-with-good-support, these are good options.

I had a 25-06 many years ago and have regretted selling it since I did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:42
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Swaro is coming out with a new z5

2.4-12x50


It will be a nice scope I am sure, but it is still not illuminated.

Given the advances in technology in the last several years, at this stage in the game, I would not buy a $1k or over hunting scope without reticle illumination (except in places where they do not allow it, obviously).

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 11:45
Great advise. 👍
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 12:41
 Slap an $8,000 Gen3+ clip-on in front of it and boom, problem: solved.

I specialize in problem solving via Rube Goldberg philosophy.

And I can make better recommendations if I know how you hunt.  For the record, I hunt, far too much, my wife would say, so this isn't coming from a place of academic inquiry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyEddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 21:20
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

 Define how you hunt, please.  If this is a walk-about/stalker, your list is pretty wrong for the hunting type.  If it is a sit-in-a-stand-with-good-support, these are good options.

I had a 25-06 many years ago and have regretted selling it since I did.

Good question - sorry to have neglected to give those details.  My current hunting is from a stand with support.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyEddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 21:33
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya

Thanks for this suggestion, and for the Kahles. I'm not familiar with either (which isn't saying much).  My spreadsheet is getting more complicated - but part of the fun for me is the "hunt" for the right gear!  Based only on a cursory review of their site, it looks like the RGD is only 23oz, and I'm looking for the details about the dichroic reticles.  That option would have to add a lot of weight to come close to the NXS (30oz) or the Toric (34oz).

Glad to hear the positive thoughts on the 25-06.  I've still never shot it, and I bought it totally on a whim as a way to change things up from my 30-06.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2019 at 23:33
 25-06 is a fantastic round. Based on what you have listed, the Toric is a good option.  Schott glass and illuminated reticle. For low light though, and I hunt here in Ga as well. I would take Ilya's advice and look for a 56mm objective. Especially when you are hunting in a thick young Pine covered cut-over. It gets really dark in there during legal hours. I personally use many different scopes for the various purposes.(I'm kinda spoiled like that) but if I didn't have the money to spend more than 2000 dollars for the scope and rings etc, I would go with the Trijicon Accupower 4.5-30x56. I have one and love it. It doesn't have the Schott Glass, but it's a fantastic scope in the price range. It isn't light weight though. But for your purpose of potentially going to other applications and still can hunt. It's an option. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2019 at 10:08
 If it is from a stand and with good support, it doesn't really matter that it is heavy.  That said, "heavy" isn't necessary.  And you will eventually be in the brush shooting it offhand, so keep weight as a factor, just not "the" factor.

Having owned several NSX series scopes (and still have one), I can say people don't buy Nightforce for low light performance - or glass quality in general.  They are very accurate and very repeatable, and durable.  For what you are doing, you don't really need a nightforce.

Last question (maybe): do you spin turrets or dope the reticle?  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2019 at 12:49
Originally posted by CrazyEddie CrazyEddie wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If low light is important, keep the reticle illuminated.

If you are willing to put up with a little weight, the best low light scope for the money is probably Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56.  They are right around $1k mark, including the new dichroic reticle they are introducing at SHOT next week.

ILya

Thanks for this suggestion, and for the Kahles. I'm not familiar with either (which isn't saying much).  My spreadsheet is getting more complicated - but part of the fun for me is the "hunt" for the right gear!  Based only on a cursory review of their site, it looks like the RGD is only 23oz, and I'm looking for the details about the dichroic reticles.  That option would have to add a lot of weight to come close to the NXS (30oz) or the Toric (34oz).

Glad to hear the positive thoughts on the 25-06.  I've still never shot it, and I bought it totally on a whim as a way to change things up from my 30-06.

Even without the dichroic reticle, Meopta's normal illumination control is very good.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cbm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2019 at 09:21

 They have some good deals on Swarovski's right now on the samplelist. I personally would lean toward the Z6 1.7-10X42 plex over the Z5 3-18x44 plex(or BRH). Swarovski really is all over the place on reticle thickness, with the Z5 having some of the thinnest. You can go on their website and look up every model with every reticle thickness. It changes a lot from model to model and even from different size scopes in the same model line(Z3, Z5, Z6,etc.).

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyEddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 07:07
I received a price alert ($860) on the Leupold VX-5HD, and it was such a good deal, it made me wonder why no one recommended it.  I think I made a mistake.  I now see that the comparable (at least price-wise) model is the VX-6HD, so I've relisted the 4 scopes below, this time with the prices I've seen, in case there is additional input (and while I await the report on the Meostar).  Smile
  • Leupold VX-6HD 3-18x50 - $1301
  • Swaro Z5 3.5-18x44 - $1230
  • Toric 4-20x50 - $1294
  • NF NXS 3.5-15x50 - $1344
Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cbm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 08:48
 Click on the SL on the top right of this forum page. The other day they had a Z5 3-18X44 for $999 and several Z6 1.7-10x42. If I remember right , there was a plex for $1299 or $1399 and a BRH for $1400 or so. They may have some of your other choices on there too. In the past, I have found their ratings to be better than expected.........so an A is basically new, a B is practically new, a C is about normal use.....at least that has been my experience. I was always pleasantly suprised at how good some of the B condition scopes were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:25
 I don't do much with Leupold products, but I would find it difficult to believe their glass is anywhere near as good as Swaro Z5 or higher.

I have had great success with Swaro.
I have had great failure with Leupold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:28
I own the Leupold VX5 and VX6.  They are both excellent scopes and the fire dot illumination system is superb.  Optically they are very good, but not quite as good as a Swaro z6.    But they are more than sufficient to get you well past legal shooting times.  The ZL dials are awesome IMO.  I am a huge fan of these scopes and for the money they offer a lot of scope. 

I sold my Z6 after I got the VX6.  Optically it was a bit better, but the ZL dials gave it so much more IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyEddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 09:53
Thank you cbm, Rancid and supercool for these additional insights.  I had looked at the Z6, but it seemed the comparable scopes were more than another $1k above the highest in the group (although I did see there are 3 Z6’s and 1 Z6i on the SL - thanks!).  Otherwise, I think that the Z5 is the only one in the group that isn’t illuminated, and several of the other posts were strongly in favor of illumination at this price point.  Rancid, I’m very interested in your Leupold failures - send me a PM if you are more comfortable sharing the details offline.< ="text/"> p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px 'Helvetica Neue'}
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 10:36
 Rancid makes his displeasure for Leupold very well known.  (which is fine, as we all have our like adn dislikes) But he has not used them in years so he has no experience with their current offerings.  So no disrespect intended Rancid.  But take his dislike of them with a grain of salt as it is not current with the scopes they have now.  I have hundreds and hundreds of rounds down range with my 5 and 6 and they are great scope.  Some ways I like them better than a Swaro others not as much. 

The comment they are not any where near optically.  They are.   The difference will be a few minutes in low light.  Maybe.   But if low light is everything, then those few minutes do indeed make a difference and it may be worth while spending the extra money.  For me, they get me well past legal shooting times so I am content.  Plus I can get two or 3 VX5s for the price of some Swaro's.  Just a preference thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 11:47
 So, some stuff that might help and might be completely superfluous:

1.  ST is partially right, my feelings for Leupold are well established and have been discussed here and elsewhere.
2.  Though I do not often use their riflescopes, several fellow hunters do.  In the hunting season that just ended,  there were 2 failures, both were Leupold.  Having broken Leupolds in the past, I am probably more aware of their failures in my area, as the guys I hunt with know I am not a Loopy fan and offer anecdotes when they can.
2B. One failure was of the older scalloped-bottom hunter, not sure what model, and it stopped holding zero, as in range shots from a stable base were everywhere, with no turning of dials.  The other is one of the newest, on a beautiful custom 300WM, the elevation turret sheered off under far less force than I would have expected.
3.  I do not purchase Leupold, but I am sometimes forced to use them.  My experiences with Leupold that were crash-n-burn are indeed mostly ancient history, but I have seen failures with their scopes.  And I am sure I am sensitive to that reinforcing information.  That said, the guys that hunt Leupold scopes have been using them for years, this was just a weird year, and timely to this conversation.

So, all that considered, you should indeed take my Leupold input in the context of someone who like Ford and dislikes Chevy but drives a Toyota.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 14:04
I should not have use the wordage Rancid has no experience.  As I have no idea what he has seen his buddies use and that he had played with some.  I should have stated he does not use/own them himself so he will not have the usage experience as some of us that own/use them often. 

My bad Rancid, I typed that in a hurry on my phone, and I really meant no offense on that.  Overall I agree the Swaro is a better scope mostly, especially if low light is critical.  But the VX5 and 6 are dandy's for the money.  Especially the VX5 IMO.  I still own a Z3 and i like it a lot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2019 at 14:06
Leupold's come a long ways since the days of the overpriced Var-x III's, etc. I'm impressed with the VX5 and 6 lines.
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