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S&B vs. USO

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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 07:23
We tested the SN-3 with a 5.5-22x 56mm Night Force NXS on a VERY hot day and the mirage was wicked. No low light testing was done that day. 
The group consensus was the USO had better clarity and resolution to US. There were 3 of us doing informal testing, so take that as you will. We had AF charts from 100 yards and out to 300 yards. Mirage was so bad that we did the charts just at 100 yards.
The USO seemed to cut the mirage a little better than the NXS, but the NF is still a hell of a nice optic.
 
I thought the USO was optically equal to my old 3-12 S&B Variable Hunting model I had. Too close to call for me. That's all I got Dave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 07:38
Thanks Mark, the nightforce is a LOW from Japan I believe so it should be with the trijicon and 4200 elite for lens quality.....least there abouts. I had always heard on optics forums that the S$B was a touch under the topline zeiss and swaro glass......perhaps that is true. Not trying to start a this vs that deal but am honestly interested in how good american lenses can be made...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 07:54
I have heard more than one saying that USO lenses are asian made.
I don't know if it's true or not.
 
On the USO i had, was the frontthread so loose against the sunshield that it almost felt like you could remove it without screwing it off.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 07:58
One of the big factors is the price of high quality optical glass it is over a thousand a pound for just the blank for high quality lens glass. It is more about how much you are willing to pay.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 07:58
Roger that, Focus.
 
The S&B and NF were all I had available for comparisons, so I can't honestly say how the USO would match up with the other Euros.
 
Maybe we could look through the archives over at Sniper's Hide to get a better testing sample?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 08:04
To answer you technika the USO president has went down on record as stating that the lenses are 100% US made and finished. Yes maybe over on SH they have done some threads on which scopes have the absolute best glass. Good Idea CT.....I'm tied up this morning but will check that out later this afternoon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 08:32
this is about as close as your going to get to a definitive and substitive answer.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 08:58
Funny with all the USO owners that none ever compared their scopes in depth to the upper level euro scopes. I'd say after reading your link that they tend to want to not actually talk about it either, jokes are much better than the truth sometimes :>). I will go down on record saying that if the USO president is a truthful man and if their scopes are truly 100% US made including the lenses. Owens Corning does not have the glass quality of the euro glass and I doubt the lenses are on an equal par with the zeiss and swaro top end stuff. Too much impurities in the US glass compared to the euros that have different impurity standards. Guess we won't know until a knowledgable gent that actually owns current USO optics and at the same time owns high end zeiss or swaro optics takes the time to do some simple low light and resolution testing.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 09:17
Rob01 over @ SH is as devout a USO guy as you will find. I believe he also owns, or has owned the new S&B PM II, IIRC as well.
I value Rob's opinions greatly.
 
It seems to me, tactical shooters place LESS emphasis on glass quality and MORE on mechanical precision and repeatability.
(I'm admittedly not a former or current tactical guy either.) 


Edited by cheaptrick - December/30/2007 at 09:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Critter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 09:18
When I visitied the USO factory about 6 or 7 years ago, John Williams Sr. had some Optical Standard Lenses that he had borrowed form CALTEC (a technical university). He had these on a optical bench and was comparing these to the lenses being made for the SN-3 objective. He told me that these lense standards were individually worth over $10,000 each.
 
You could see that they were virtually identical in resolution tests as they were being compared there with Airforce high resolution charts. Color resolution and light transmission values while not quite as good very close, and these intended for rifle scope application.
 
I was sold from what I could see on the instruments. Also light sources were calibrated as well, so you were comparing apples and apples, something you rarely see in optical tests.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 09:18
Originally posted by Duce Duce wrote:

One of the big factors is the price of high quality optical glass it is over a thousand a pound for just the blank for high quality lens glass. It is more about how much you are willing to pay.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 09:40
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Rob01 over @ SH is as devout a USO guy as you will find. I believe he also owns, or has owned the new S&B PM II, IIRC as well.
I value Rob's opinions greatly.


It seems to me, tactical shooters place LESS emphasis on glass quality and MORE on mechanical precision and repeatability.

(I'm admittedly not a former or current tactical guy either.)


I agree Mark, I think that real optical superiority is probably not that important in relation to options, repeatability, and ruggedness. Just something I've always wondered about. Money buys to a certain level of quality with lens glass and after that the glass country of origin kicks in as all glass is not created equal...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 10:09
Good points, as always Focus.
 
You also mentioned "options", where I failed to.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a scope maker more "custom" than USO either.
USO is a REAL custom scope manufacturer, where even the mighty Schmidt and Bender's PM II is a "take it or leave it" deal, as far as I know. They don't even do their own reticles..Premier does. Smoking
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 11:57
the post from sh reflects the situation there, which has been hashed and rehashed so many times the regulars won't answer it.
if you will accept a summary it usually runs like this
uso is the preferred scope because of the ruggedness and choice of reticles offered
if this is not as important the S$B gets the thumbs because of better glass.
alot of those people's job description include "live target" and don't believe a 100% increase in cost and a 10% increase in glass, is worth a 20% decrease in repeatability. 2 of the moderators prefer nf, 1 owner of the sight prefers S$B, has 13 of the little buggers.
uso>sb>>nf>>>>>ior -- zeiss doesn't even enter into the conversation except for some of the f class and long range target shooters, but this area is ruled by nf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 14:19
Thanks Dale.....so there we have it, as I thought the actual lens quality is off-set by the use and other options/fearures available. Makes sense to me and answers my questions. I'm sure if tactical/sniper was my focus USO/S&B would get the nod......if long range target was my goal NF/leupold would probably be my pic......if just plain the best lenses for resolution and low light hunting was my end plan than zeiss/swaro would have my attention. Thanks for the info guys, it really does depend on what your ultimate goal is....

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Edited by Focus - December/30/2007 at 14:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 18:09
It's really not that easy.
A lot is about traditions and regional choises.
In US mostly people would choose something that goes in imperial/moa, while in europe mostly people would not choose anything at all in imperial/moa and instead use metric.
So the european shooter would regardless if the Leupold was better not choose that one because he is not interested to start thinking Imperial.
 
Same thing in Bullseye pistol competition, in US 98% of the shooters would buy a custom 1911, while here in Sweden 98% would use a SIG P210.
That doesent necesaraly mean that either one of them are right, that does more mean that both are wrong........
Personally I always shot with a custom lugerpistol and scored higher with that than I would with either my 1911 or SIG P210.
 
So it's about finding something that fits you.
imperial turrets, sloopy threads, uselessness in lowlight/nighthunting, poor FOV etc doesent fit me, and therefor would I never use Leupold or a NF even though I actually own both of them (NF 8-32x56 and Leupold longrange 6,5-20x50) for a serious gun.
 
Regards Technika
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2007 at 21:30

I think the operating term here is live target. I'm sure I'll get corrected if wrong, but I'm willing to bet there are 10x more swat call outs in the USA than europe, virtually every county sheriffs dept. has a "sharp-shooter" and I'm willing to bet that there are 10 leos out in those depts. for every Zeiss. and S&B. Soooo-- what you and I use don't mean squat.

Even most accross the pond shooters in USDPA use 1911's, Lugers and sigs have been tried here in both action sports and NRA bulleye but they don't cut it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2007 at 01:10

You surely have more than 10X more sharpshooters in USA than we have here.

But just because they have choosen Leupold doesent mean it's the best choise.
It's more the traditional choise.
In Europe I don't know of any sharoshooter or sniper that use Leupold.
There is a few that uses NF but mostly go for Smith u Bender and a few go for Hensoldt.
A sharpshooter that chooses Leupold is doing a bad choise, as he is then limiting his ability to work in poor light by a lot.
 
I am still very convinced that the choise to go for Leupold and 1911 in USA is most of all a traditional choise and not the smartest choise.
For some people might or is the 1911 the right choise, but many other would have a better scores with a P210.
And the P210 is by far a more well made, user friendly pistol than 1911 EVER will be regardless of gunsmith.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Critter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2007 at 01:59
Personally, I haven't been able to buy a decent scope for 30 years. I am therefore forced to use US Optics.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2007 at 02:14

I have been looking for an old Unertl like yours, for a long time, but find them to expensive for the limited use they have. So I have to stick with my old English Ross.

Regards Technika
 
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