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Scope Dilemma

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2018 at 08:31
taz_gerstman View Drop Down
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Good morning all. I have recently purchased a Tikka T3x lite .308 and I am looking to put a scope on it. I have decided to go with the Swarovski brand and I am looking at the Z3 model. For the Z3 I am looking at the 4-12x50 Plex. I live in North Alabama and most of my rifle shots are 200 yards and in so I think the Z3 will be just fine. The local cabelas has what I am looking for except the reticle is different. It has the lower lines for different yardages when shooting longer distances. I hesitate to buy that one because I have read that if you start shooting longer distances it is better to have a scope that has a side parallax adjustment. That feature now puts me into the Z5 swaro line and the price goes up but I really don’t think I need that option. Of course there is always that well there will be that one time. So what does everyone here think about my concern? Thanks

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2018 at 09:00
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 First, welcome.

Second, great choice on a great gun and caliber.

Third, take the rings that are on the Tikka and throw them - immediately and forcefully - in the garbage.  I own several Tikkas and have seen their stock rings fail a few times, do not trust them!

Fourth, the additional lines on the reticle are of no consequence if they are not needed.  If you want a plex, meaning thicker lines at the 4 posts, someone should be able to help with that (SWFA, our host here, sells the Z3 line and does price matching.)

Fifth, if you do get the drop reticle (which I have on a 3-10 Swaro, AV line, I think), they need to be shot in with your gun and your ammo to determine what ranges the lines actually correspond to.  There is no shortcut on this, it has to be done on the range.  There are a few ways to estimate, none of them should be trusted without verification.

Sixth, back to rings: my Tikkas with flat tops all wear Talley light weight rings, they have never failed me.  Others will have recommendations as well, those are mine.

Lastly, parallax at range is indeed a thing, and the error does grow with range; but for a hunting rifle to be used at 200 and in for most shots, you are good.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2018 at 09:11
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 Thank you for the info. Yes I do agree that range work is needed and I am looking forward to it. I have other rifles that I need to take to the range. I only use Leupold dual dove tails for my scope rings and mounts. Well I may find a better price with cabelas because I can order discounted gift cards from a site called gift card zen. Value of $100 for 82.50 so I figure it up and I can save round $162 on the total purchase. It is just annoying when you go into cabelas and they never seem to have what you are looking for. Thanks again. more info welcome. what brand of ammo and grain? I was going to push for the 168 grain. This is an experiment rifle although may take the place of my current deer rifle which is a browning x bolt 308, which is an awesome gun as well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2018 at 10:58
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If it is a trophy hunt and you really don't want to lose the animal, I go with Barnes TSX and TTSX projectiles.  I've also had good luck with Harnady Amax.

On weight, there will always be debate.  Having shot many animals, I haven't recovered many projectiles from my 308s, and find shot placement immensely more important than whether it was a 150-gr or a 168-gr projectile.

I stay away from soft-point stuff, as I've seen it hit small branches and disintegrate.  I've not seen the same with Barnes solid core or Amax (though Amax might do it too, I just haven't seen it.)

When it comes to hunting - or any shooting endeavor - confidence is king.  Shoot the gun, often, and it will help your shot placement.  If you shoot once or twice a year, all bets are off for precision and accuracy.

I'm not a fan of the dovetail mounts, but I know many are.  And the dual dovetails are far superior to the dovetail front - floating windage rear, those are the worst I've seen for consistent precision and accuracy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 02:49
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Great scope choice. Got 2 Z3 scopes and a Z4i I think wonderful.

Zero at 200yds and go hunting.

in counter to RC's recommendation, I love softpoints. Find out what your gun likes (shoots tight groups with) and use that. I would say use quality ammunition rather than cheap stuff. I really like Nosler Partition myself (Federal premium load this in 150gr and I think you'd be good for any deer on the planet with that)

Scrummy


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 07:24
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Just a personal opinion, but for 200 in, I would not get a 4x and up variable. I have a 4-16x50 monarch on my 270, and just don't really like it for short range hunting. To me it always feels like its much higher than 4X when I look through it. 

I have been tinkering with 308 ammo, and have some Berger's loaded right now I need to go shoot and see how they group. THey are 168 gr Classic Hunters. My 700 shot 150 grain H American whitetail around 1 inch. I have tinkered with some 168 grain BT's and 178-ELDX , but haven't shot a deer with those. 

The deer I have shot, 2 were DRT with the AW 150 grain, 2 I shot with 165 H Custom, 1 was DRT, other I never found. I shot 2 with H 150gr SST, one was DRT, other ran about 50 yards. I shot one twice last year with F Premium 150 gr partition, and it ran about 50 yards and got in a creek and drown not far from my stand. 

I have a Ruger Hawkeye 16.5 in barrel, with a zeiss duralyt 2-8x42, and my Rem 700 SPS tac with a minox ZX5 3-15x50. Both are 30mm scopes. All the deer above, except the two shot with the 150 SST were shot with the Ruger. I have no idea what the Ruger likes, I have some 180 Gr F Premium with partitions I want to see how it shoots too. It's my close in gun. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 09:29
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I am a bit sensative to recoil... so I would want a scope with longer eye relief .. like the old Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40.   i really wish they would have kept making this scope... it would be perfect for what you are looking for. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 10:50
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The Z3 3-9x with 4A reticle would be a much better match for the rifle and style of hunting. The magnification problems tend to be having too much for shorter shots than not enough for longer ones. The 4A reticle is nicer for low light and fast shooting.

Typically, you're either where 100 yards is as far you can see or in a more open area where 250 yards is as far as you will be able to see a deer. The simple solution is to zero a scope with repeatable turrets at 100 yards. When in the open, dial up 2". Your maximum point blank range will be determined by how windy it is, not bullet drop. 

.308 deer ammo selection is easy. Any of the 165gr+ quick expanding points through the shoulders work fine. With SE whitetails you want a bullet that expands easily and has enough length to drive through. 

Deer hunters should read the results of the SC DNR study on bullets and placement.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 11:30
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I am a bit sensative to recoil... so I would want a scope with longer eye relief .. like the old Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40.   i really wish they would have kept making this scope... it would be perfect for what you are looking for. 


That scope is still available as Meopta Meopro.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 18:36
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I am a bit sensative to recoil... so I would want a scope with longer eye relief .. like the old Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40.   i really wish they would have kept making this scope... it would be perfect for what you are looking for. 


That scope is still available as Meopta Meopro.

ILya

Good to know!!  Thank you Sir
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 19:02
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Speer's 165 grain Spitzer SP Hot-Cor out of a .308 or .30-06 works just fine for deer and antelope.  Usually DRT with proper placement in my experience.  You don't need the fancier (and more expensive) bullets for these game animals.

However, every rifle has its own likes and dislikes and you will want to find out what loads and bullets your rifle likes.

At 200 yards or less in Alabama, you are more likely to be over-scoped than under-scoped.  In my woods hunting, too much power was a bigger problem than too little power.

One possible solution is a set of quick release mounts and rings, with two scopes ...a low power variable for woods hunting, and a high power variable for precision long range shooting.

The above folks are giving you excellent advice based on lots of personal skill and experience.  Best of luck with your new rifle!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2018 at 19:36
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At 200 to 250 yards a 4X scope would be just fine.....a 6X scope would be the cat's meow....pick what you want.... 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2018 at 10:08
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Let me add more. I bought my Monarch 4-16X50 because when I looked at my hunting club, I was told that one field in particular was over 400 Yards from the shooting house to back side of the field. When I ranged it after I joined, its really about 300. 

It is the longest shot on a green field in our club. It's on a powerline. In Alabama. 

Last season, I sat out on a cut over. I had at least 2 deer walk into it. I saw them with my eyes, got bino's out and found them easily. I could never find them with the scope. When I turned it up, the FOV was so small, I am certain they walked out of the spot I had them in, and that is the curse of the high magnification. 

I have also had a deer run under my stand and I couldn't see it at dusk with the same scope. 

The only positive about it is I am able to really zoom in on a deer's head to see if it had tiny spikes, so I don't shoot it thinking its a doe. And its nice when punching paper. In the field, I just never turn ity up much past 10. 

And the other thing I noticed, when I went from a 3-9 to this scope, I thought going up to 16X would really make a far off target much bigger, but it didn't quite seem to pan out that way for me. 

I like the scope enough I wouldn't just outright sell it, unless someone offered me a really good $ for it, but I sure wouldn't get another one. To my eyes, the highest low power I want in Alabama is a 3 power. I absolutely LOVE my Zeiss Duralyt 2-8x42. It has a #6 reticle I think they call it, which is really a number 4. 




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2018 at 10:11
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Honestly for big game hunting it is hard to beat a scope in the 2 to 3ish on bottom end and 8 to 12ish on the top end.  For typical big game hunting high mag is just not needed and most of my shots are typically on the low end of the magnification range. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2018 at 10:24
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Originally posted by urbaneruralite urbaneruralite wrote:


Deer hunters should read the results of the SC DNR study on bullets and placement.

Got a link buddy?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2018 at 10:39
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I think this will be the study he is talking about.


I do agree with the study that barnes and other types of heavy duty bullets are way overkill for deer.  Especially small deer like a white tail.  EVen on elk I have almost always used what they call group 1 bullets on elk and have never had one get away from me and that include remington core lock factory rounds in .243 and 7mm mag

I use Barnes in my 300 wsm just because they shoot the best.  But thats the only reason.  I have yet to kill anything with those bullets, but have killed 2 elk with 180 Sierra game kings and they worked good. 


Edited by supertool73 - July/12/2018 at 10:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/12/2018 at 10:50
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 http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

Interesting study, several things jump out at me, but I'll not comment till others have a chance to read.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2018 at 08:19
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If it's not too late, may I suggest you get a small scope with no parallax knob and as little sticking out beyond the front mounts as possible.

IMHO most scopes since 1980 have been rubbish because of their constantly centred reticles but when that's all there is ...

One thing that doesn't change, though, is the susceptibility of large objective bells to loss of zero from being bumped. The more to be levered, the greater the effect. Even if you do find an animal at the extreme range of your medium-range calibre, the chances you would remember or have time to adjust the parallax are minimal; just take the steadiest position you can, make a conservative estimate of the range, account for it and shoot. Chances are a 2.5x scope would be enough for any shot on deer out to 300 yards and any range beyond that is really stretching it. But of course fixed powers are hard to find now so go for a small variable, set it low for hunting and don't be tempted to waste time winding it up when that 300 yard shot offers.

A VX-1-type Leupold 2-7 would be the best value but Swarovski and Nikon scopes are good, despite their tunnel vision.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2018 at 11:35
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 Sorry I have been nonresponsive lately. I have been very busy. From what I read there are some great comments and advice. I have however purchased a scope. I went with the Leupold vx-6hd 2-12x42 cds zl2. I came across someone that really knew what there were talking about and I finally settled on this scope. I have never been much of a leupold fan but then again I don't know a lot about the scopes like most. So let the comments begin. thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2018 at 15:19
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No doubt a fine scope and hopefully the right price. But, the CDS for 200 yards and a .308 is unnecessary.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2018 at 15:37
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So I guess I should clarify to some degree. A majority of my shots range to about 200. However I do hunt a few places that will allow me to take shots up to 1000 yards if I so desire and I am thinking about making this into an elk gun as well. Not going to get too crazy with it but I have the options to reach on out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2018 at 07:28
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In that case the CDS may come in handy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2018 at 00:11
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Taz, don't let the tail wag the dog. Though the 2-12x scope may suggest the world's your oyster, the rifle beneath is still only a .308, not a 338 Lapua. If you intend to hunt elk with it, use a 200-grain bullet and make sure your beast is well within 200 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2018 at 03:52
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Originally posted by sambarman338 sambarman338 wrote:

Taz, don't let the tail wag the dog. Though the 2-12x scope may suggest the world's your oyster, the rifle beneath is still only a .308, not a 338 Lapua. If you intend to hunt elk with it, use a 200-grain bullet and make sure your beast is well within 200 yards.

There is some truth to this. For heavier bullets I prefer something with a little more Ooomph and for hunting when you might have to shoot quickly, remember MPBR is your friend ;)

Scrummy
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2018 at 22:57
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Yes Scrummy, MPBR (though new initials to me) is very important, because game animals often clear off before you can get out the rangefinder or even turn up the power of your scope. 

A mate shot at a sambar recently with his 9.3x62 but missed. I asked the distance and he said about 300 metres. I quizzed him on where had aimed (at the chest) and the distance the rifle was zeroed (about 100) and suggested he may have missed it by a foot because the heavy bullet may have dropped two on the way. Back at the range, I got him to zero at 200 yards, to give some chance on long shots. Then, looking at the targets, he began to think the deer had not been 300 metres away but only half that.

So, why he missed is still a mystery. Distances can be deceptive even at normal ranges and the closer critters are the less chance they will stand around while we try to calculate range. Because our eyes are five or six feet above the ground, there is a kind of triangulation aspect to estimating closer distances but beyond about 200 yards looking down on the ground becomes much harder. And once we exceed maximum point-blank range, the trajectory parabola drops away big time. Therefore, I think we should find what distance our bullet neither rises nor falls any more than four inches (10cm) and try to get within that distance. We may take the odd range-estimated shot beyond that but, as the space between bushes and trees on the way foreshortens, distance and bullet drop becomes more and more of a guess.
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