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Vortex Viper vs. Diamondback

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 23:31
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338LAPUASLAP:
 
Thank you for responding.
 
Re: Why would you not go to the newer Kahles as they have what you are looking for and it seems it fits well in your current collection.
 
I agree.  The problem is $$$. Look at the prices for new European scopes in Canada I quoted in one of my earlier posts.  They are simply unaffordable to me at present, being retired; much as I would like to buy them, either that or S&B's, Zeiss Victory, or the Swarovski Z6's.  We just spent $140k on our cottage renovations / addition this past summer (it's still not finished yet!) to get our wilderness paradise in the shape we want; therefore serious funds for upgrading shooting glass are just not available.

Re: Other than that I might suggest keeping in the pattern of older glass.
 
That is what I am being forced to do; however, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced, that that is the correct way to go.  Buy older used quality glass, especially in the lower powers that the young'uns forsake because they're not 6-50x50 do it all, tactical, &c., &c.  Personally, for my shooting purposes, in my locale, those scopes are next to useless, unless I want to identify a certain tick on a moose's hide, rather than pick the spot I want to hit.

Re: I prefer some older scopes to newer scopes as the coatings are not seemingly as bright but the colors are truer or can keep there neutral or natural color without the "false" brightness.

I find this to be the case as well, especially with Kahles & Swarovski Habicht scopes.  The reds & grays / brownish-black renditions of the colours of the whitetails / moose / bears "seem", at least to me, to be more true-to-life.
 
Re: Some of the Newer glass has better finishing on the lenses shape with less Chromatic Aberration or less Color Fringing and blurring/ distortion but I find that some of these add a degree of color enhancement that is not as natural where certain colors are off from the un-scoped eye.
 
See above.  Some of them look "too bright" & unnatural to me.  Plus I have noticed that the outer edges of the visual picture in the Minox scopes I have looked at have been blurry; I passed on buying them for this reason, despite their very nice prices, especially for Schott glass.  I noticed the same thing in the 2 Zeiss Conquest scopes I have owned (& sold for this reason).  Having said that, I have noticed that upon looking at a snowbank, some of my older scopes show pictures that look more yellow / brownish to me, compared to looking at them with my eyes or looking through the newer glass; however, I have yet to want to shoot a yellow snowbank!

Re: I have to state this as it is very hard for us to swallow.
We pay $1,000.00 USD OR $1k for 1 of the scopes you mentioned, in order to get 5 even just the Kahles 1-4's we would be paying just guest-i-mating over $4k USD for what you got for your $1k CAD.
 
REALLY!!!  Holy smokes!  Well then, would you like to buy a few of my excess ones, presuming I can legally ship them to you!  :-)))  Send me a PM, if you are interested & I can send you some photos of the ones I am prepared to part with.  I am asking, based on 50% of the appraisals I recently received,  $750.00 Cdn for the Kahles zf84 6x42 (#105 reticle) set up for the 7.62 NATO round (26 mm tube with Brownell's 30-26mm ring reducers included) & $350.00 for each of the older Kahles scopes I want to sell.  In Canadian dollars.  I just sold my Kahles zf69 6x42 26mm tube scopes for $750.00 Cdn, so that one is no longer available.  Of course, if you have any Swarovski Habicht 4x32's, or a Karl KAPS 1.1-4x22 kicking around, we could always engage in a little horse-trading! ;-)
 
On 2nd thought, I guess I do believe you, as the prices I paid for my older British rifles apparently simply amazes my American friends, as they say I "stole" them, but that is what the prices are in Canada, for Canadians.  I know when I look through your magazines, such as Double Gun Journal, I think there must be misprints in the prices, as we don't pay anywhere near the prices, at least for British shotguns, that they ask for them south of the border.


Re: You have a very nice collection.
 
Thank you kindly.  It has taken me 30 years, a lot of trades & a lot of funds to get it into this shape, but that is only the part of my collection that wears glass; there is also a fair bit, naturally including shotguns, that does not.

Re: I would not (forgive me as I do own a Diamondback and a Viper) pollute your collection with anything lesser than Kahles or Swarovski.

I really don't know how to respond to this, other than to say I have been extremely lucky or blessed, likely both, to be able to have found / purchased older European glass for my rifles thus far.

Re: Karl Kaps, Comes to mind.

I have researched these as well & am quite interested, but up here, they are $$$.  The lowest power K.K. scopes that the sole dealer for them in Canada has, is the 1.5-6x42 for $1,099.95, plus tax & shipping (I like the 1.1-4x22, but he doesn't import that model)
 
I probably shouldn't ask this, as we have no Canadian dealers, but what have you heard / experienced about MEOPTA scopes.  I was looking at a 1-4x22 30mm scope that I thought was nice, but then again, have not looked through any, so......
 
Time to get packing to go back to the cabin (my son, who is the contractor, says it is too nice now to be called a cabin; it has to be called a lodge, which my wife agrees with, soooo.....).  I wish it was to go hunting, but we still have to do the plumbing, fireplace hearth, back deck steps, garage shelves, &c., &c., &c.
 
Regards,
 
Jim
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 10:38
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We have family from Red Deer, they have a "Cabin" in Rocky Mountain House. I know a few "shooters" from Canada that rub in my face all the time all the nice rifles and old glass floating around up there While they have never offered selling anything to me.

Just so you do not get a bad impression from the other posters they are all just a little slow to respond because of prior past history with many of the ones who are very fast to boast a collection and then not be able to support the claims and the others that have the money but haven't a clue.

I would like to hear from the Owner of SWFA his name is Chris Farris he is the "founder" if you will of this site.  I believe at minimum he is the "host". 

He might have a suggestion on glass that fits your needs.

There are many others on this site that could suggest but again I think they are a little hesitant due to the severity of your questions and a few of your comments, particularly the Conquest comment, for a lot here (as is the case) that is a very nice optical performer, while I understand your comments are directed at a comparison to there other models of scopes and of glass it is hard for some, not having them to be able to fathom that comment.

I my self don't think they are side by side comparable but would never say it is not a nice scope or performer.  

The laughable is just a little off base IMHO because it still seems to me to beat most other glass, but it would be like saying the Porche Carrera is laughable (a peice of crap) because the Porche Carrera GT is so much better.  The internals are different the performance is different but they are both quality solid performing cars for the price points.

This might also come as a surprise to you.

I am just a dumb whipper snapper compared to the multitude of posters on here I can't hold a candle to their experience in the glass world.  I have however been around and shot or had to shoot most military platforms and have a love for Sako and Steyr (which 9 of 10 have a nice Hensoldt, Zeiss, Swarovski, Kahles attached to them).






Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - October/10/2011 at 11:23
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I tend to base my impressions and certainly my spoken convictions on actual experience with owning and using that optic.  Unless I have had a scope model that has been mounted on one of my rifles and has been shaken out by me personally, I tend to not want to speak ill of it or give the optic a personal reference (good or bad) without this experience.
 
When I hear stories about scope makers in Asia who develop coatings specifically for looking good in an environment of fluorescent lighting (like the interior of a store), it makes me leery of basing any opinion on any optic that I have not tested in natural light by actually shooting the scope on a rifle.  Call me anything you like but I was an engineer and worked for an optical lens company for several years.  This has made me cautious about jumping on any opinion bandwagon without hands on experience.
 
Spell checked and corrected.


Edited by Oldtrader3 - October/10/2011 at 13:54
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338LAPUASLAP:
 
Thank you again for the comments / advice.  Now I see why I may have ticked a few people off.  Yeah, I guess my comment about Conquests being laughable in quality would tend to rile some folks.  I strictly meant it in comparison to the Zeiss Diavaris, Swarovski Habichts, Kahles Helias, Schmidt und Bender's that I have on several of my rifles.
 
As for the Kahles zf84 6x42 I am selling, here is a link to a photo of it.  Feel free to look at the other photos of it, as well as my small collection, as well as the photos on there of my rides, the cottage, &c., &c., &c.
 
Regards,
 
Jim 
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Oops.  Forgot to put the photobucket link in my previous post so here it is again:
 
 
Feel free to snoop around to have a look at my toys!
 
Hmmm!
 
Before shutting the computer down, I took a few minutes to re-read this whole thread & maybe we should consider changing the thread's name (I'm not sure if this could be done or not), given the direction the thread has taken, to something like:
 
Which to Buy: Older European Scopes or New Available Scopes / Which Offers Better Quality / Value
 
Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow Canucks!
 
Happy Columbus Day to my Southern Neighbours!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 14:11
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Originally posted by old gun nut old gun nut wrote:

Oldtrader3:
 
"managed to offend almost all, must be one of those "City Canadians" that drive through here at 85 MPH all day, everyday and piss off almost all of we Colonials.
 
Sorry, I didn't realize that in the few posts I have made on here I have managed to offend almost everyone.  If I have somehow, please accept my humble apologies.
 
BTW, I am NOT one of those "City Canadians"; in fact I live most of the year in the bush SW of Red Lake, ON., NW of Kenora, ON, ~100 miles E of Winnipeg, MB, & ~400 miles NNE of Minneapolis, MN.
 
As well, I don't think any of my diesel Toyota LandCruisers could even do 85 mph; they start to express their displeasure at anything over 110 kph (~65 mph), mainly because of the 5.29 gears, but I suppose also because of their "brick-like" streamlined silhouettes & the amount of air underneath their chassis because of the 38" Michelin XL military tires they ride on.
 
Lastly, I didn't think you yanks liked to be considered as "Colonials" since that unfortunate misunderstanding with George III a little over 2 centuries ago! ;-)
 
Regards, 
 
Old gun nut, no personal offense intended.  I live 300 feet from the Canadian border near Interstate 5.  The artiface of having an international border between ourselves and the four million denisons of British Columbia's southern peninsula, with a major city (Vancouver), and it's suburbs just across the border from our rural town of 4,000 people makes for some friction.
 
Local Canadians seem rather cavalier about traffic laws and speed limits.  Plus, we have a hit-and-run for the border death in our two block long main street about once or twice a year by Canadians who are driving 50+ mph in a 25 mph zone, which sometimes results in pedestrians in marked cross-walks being run over, which at that speed usually kills the pedestrian.  The perpetrators often run for the border and are not caught nearly frequently enough.
 
We do not mind Canadians coming down here and some of our local friends are Canadians.  We just wish that some of them had more respect for our laws.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 17:05
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338lapuaslap,

The reason I largely stayed away from this thread is that I patently disagree with a bulk of what the original poster said regarding the comparison of older scopes with newer ones.  I like a lot of old german and austrian scopes and they are usually beautifully crafted instruments with excellent performance considering when they were made.

However, by and larger, modern mid-range scopes (like Minox, Conquest, etc) optically outperform the most expensive scopes of 20 years ago, especially in challenging lighting conditions.  My opinion in this case is not based on hearsay, but on looking at a lot of scopes side-by-side.

There are a lot of reasons to own old scopes: they are beautifully made and very functional.  Besides, there are some bragging rights, I am sure, that come with owning 30 scopes with fancy brand names.  However, optical performance is not a good reason here.

With all that out of the way, it seems like the original poster is very clear in what he wants: 
- well-known european brand, 
- compact size  
- wide field of view.  

Ordinarily under these conditions I would suggest that he watch the Samplelist, but since he is in Canada, that won't work.

Another recommendation I thought of was Leupold VX-7 1.5-6x24 which is as an excellent deal at current close-out prices (come to think about it, I should probably pick one of them up), but he seems dead set against Leupold, so that is not an option.

Burris Euro Diamond 1-4x24 that is also heavily discounted right now is likely not an option either, since it is not Kahles/Zeiss/Swaro.

Apparently, nothing else will suffice, so there is very little room for making recommendations.
I would suggest he takes a look at Meopta Meostar 1-4x22, but that name may not offer enough bragging rights (although the scope itself is very good).  Ditto for Nikon Monarch African 1.1-4x24.

ILya
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Understood.
 
I admitedly know nothing about 1-4's.
 
ILya, I think you informed me a while back as to why the colors seem so different with the newer glass.  I do admit new glass is much brighter and is superior at night, but I believe we also settled that some brighter glass does make some colors appear differently as well. 
 
I see a little yellow tint on some of my old scopes (Kahles, Swaro, Hensoldt, Wetzlar)just as some of the particulates in them almost seem to be crystalized or changing (breaking down? seperating? oxidizing?)...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 19:16
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Understood.
 
I admitedly know nothing about 1-4's.
 
ILya, I think you informed me a while back as to why the colors seem so different with the newer glass.  I do admit new glass is much brighter and is superior at night, but I believe we also settled that some brighter glass does make some colors appear differently as well. 
 
I see a little yellow tint on some of my old scopes (Kahles, Swaro, Hensoldt, Wetzlar)just as some of the particulates in them almost seem to be crystalized or changing (breaking down? seperating? oxidizing?)...

I like low range variable scopes, so I spend a fair amount of time with 1-4x scopes.

Tint in the image can come from a number of sources.  One is by design: a lot of makers used to have some glass elements that had a tint because other properties were advantageous.  Also, some coatings produced that tint in an attempt to improve perceived contrast.  Of course, a color tint can be introduced simply because coatings have aged somewhat.

Either way, color fidelity is simply a matter of personal preference.

There are a lot of other factors to an optical design that are increasingly well understood and corrected in modern scopes.

ILya
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Yes, I believe that Zeiss (even the lowly conquest line) and the Meopta as well as some of the later Japense glass.
 
I had an old Meopta that was more than comparable to a Hensoldt or Wetzlar or Kahles or Swaro...
 
I have yet to dive into the new Meopta waiting for the next round.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2011 at 20:27
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Sorry for the late reply, but I've been out at the cottage hunting & supervising the interior finishing.
 
Ilya:
 
Like you, I prefer low power optics, especially for hunting up here in the Canadian Shield, which is reflected in the glass I have on my rifles.  The 3 deer I took in the last month were at less than 75 yards.  2 were MUCH less.  There is no such thing as a long shot here, the bush just swallows visibility up.
 
In any event, if you hold up 7 fingers to represent how much time you have on  earth & then fold down the age you are; yielding how much time you have left, I have 1 & a half fingers showing.  Might as well use the best for what I may have left.  'Sides, hopefully, my son / sons-in-law / grand-sons will appreciate their inheritance & not have to spend their $$$'s buying guns / glass.
 
Re: "I patently disagree with a bulk of what the original poster said regarding the comparison of older scopes with newer ones.  I like a lot of old german and austrian scopes and they are usually beautifully crafted instruments with excellent performance considering when they were made.  However, by and larger, modern mid-range scopes (like Minox, Conquest, etc) optically outperform the most expensive scopes of 20 years ago, especially in challenging lighting conditions.  My opinion in this case is not based on hearsay, but on looking at a lot of scopes side-by-side"
 
Well, I just finished looking at my son's Leupold Vari-X III 3-9x40 compared to my Kahles 2.2-9x42 & my Zeiss Diavari 1.75-6x42 & I couldn't disagree more.  I can still see the bunny tracks at the base of the bush across the yard (~75 yards) with either of those 2, but can't see anything through my son's Leupold, even after it was focused for my eyes.  Having said that, I also compared my old Conquest (3-9) that I gave my son & my Diavari-C T* (3-9) & they showed a bit better resolution (?) compared to his Leupold or the Baush & Lomb Balvar (1980's mfg. 1.5-6x32) that I gave my oldest son-in-law.

Re: There are a lot of reasons to own old scopes: there are some bragging rights,
 
I don't care about bragging rights.  I just want optics that work, in daylight but especially in low light, for my 55 year old eyes.
Re: With all that out of the way, it seems like the original poster is very clear in what he wants: 
- well-known european brand, 
- compact size  
- wide field of view.
 
Yes, but only because of:
known quality;
so I can mount it low to get a good cheek weld;
yes, for running shots.
 
I'd like to try some more IOR, as I like their etched reticles & have had good luck with the 4x32 IOR scope that I currently have, but the Canadian dealer is now gone.  

Re: Ordinarily under these conditions I would suggest that he watch the Samplelist, but since he is in Canada, that won't work.
 
Yes, I know.Sad

Re: Another recommendation I thought of was Leupold VX-7 1.5-6x24 which is as an excellent deal at current close-out prices (come to think about it, I should probably pick one of them up), but he seems dead set against Leupold, so that is not an option.

See above.  The big thing I like about Leupolds in Canada is that they will do reticle changes.  BTW, we do NOT have no cost lifetime-warranty for Leupold scopes here in Canada; service work costs $$$'s for the ONLY factory-authorized service centre, ie. Korth Agencies.
 
Re: Burris Euro Diamond 1-4x24 that is also heavily discounted right now is likely not an option either, since it is not Kahles/Zeiss/Swaro.
 
Who has them in Canada?

Re: Apparently, nothing else will suffice, so there is very little room for making recommendations.
I would suggest he takes a look at Meopta Meostar 1-4x22, but that name may not offer enough bragging rights (although the scope itself is very good).  Ditto for Nikon Monarch African 1.1-4x24.

Same answer as above, ie. Who has them in Canada?  I tried to locate the exact Meopta you are recommending, as they look VERY promising, but nobody is bringing them in to Canada.  In fact, when you click on the icon for Meopta dealers in Canada, nothing happens!  I would also really like to try the Nikon African Monarchs but Nikon Canada does not import them.
 
Also, in case I have not made myself clear before, I am not referring to the old war-time or 1950-1960 produced European scopes, as all of mine are the 1980's era glass. 
 
Also, I defy anyone who has compared them side by side, in low light, which is where I need the quality, to tell me that:
a similarly-powered USA-assembled Zeiss Conquest scope compares favourably to a Zeiss Victory T*, or any of the Zeiss Diavari T* models;
 
BTW, all of my Kahles scopes were made under Swarovski ownership, ie after 1974.
 
In any event, the current line-up is thus:
 

(2x)Bausch & Lomb, Balvar, 1.5-6x20,

(2x) Bausch & Lomb, Balvar, 1.5-6x32,

Bushnell, Banner, 2.5x20,

Bushnell, Scope Chief IV, 1.5-4.5x20,

IOR, 4x32,

Kahles, Helia Super, 1.5-4.5x26,

Kahles

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2011 at 21:18
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Missed out - you have :

"The Trijicon AccuPoint features advanced fiber optics and several intelligent features that make this scope the right choice for all light conditions and even the harshest environments. All models in the AccuPoint® Series operate battery free—eliminating the potential for failure during critical moments in the field. They also feature Trijicon's Manual Brightness Adjustment Override, which allows you to control the light output of the fiber-optics during daylight. AccuPoint® riflescopes include other advanced elements like multi-layer coated lenses for superior light transmission with no distortion, quick-focus eyepiece, long-eye relief, and precise windage and elevation adjustments."

Trijicon 1-4x24 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope German #4 Crosshair w/ Green Dot Trijicon 1-4x24 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR243G
  • Matte
  • German #4 Crosshair w/ Green Dot
  • 30mm
$844.95 
Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope Red Triangle Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR22R
  • Matte
  • Red Triangle
  • 30mm
$870.95


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/02/2011 at 21:22
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Trijicon 1-4x20 in Canada is $1,070.93 + shipping + tax = $1,238.65. (Well, you could, if the dealers weren't out of stock)
 
I'll take an older Zeiss Diavari 1.5-4.5x18 or Swarovski 1.5-4.5x20 for ~$450.00 shipped for either one, thank you very much
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You mention a Leupold Vari-X III 3-9x40 as an example of a modern mid-range scope you have looked at.  If it is called Vari-X III, it is a fairly old design as well.  Besides, there is no 3-9x40 in the "III" line-up by Leupold.  That would be a part of the Vari-X II (20-25 year old design) or VX-II (15-20 year old design) line-ups.

ILya
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bump 

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Well, after some judicious horse-trading and sending scopes back to their maker for reticle changes in the past year, I have been able to upgrade the stable of glass with reticles a lot better suited to these tired old eyes.  The accumulation now consists of the following:

(1x) Schmidt und Bender 1.5-6x42 (#A1)
(1x) Swarovski, Habicht Nova, 4x32 (#4)
(1x) Swarovski, Habicht Nova A, 4x32 (#4)
(1x) Swarovski, Habicht Nova A, 3-9X36 (#4A)
(1x) Zeiss, DIAVARI-ZA T*, 1.75-6x42 (#4)
(1x) Kahles, Helia Super, 1.5-4.5x20 (#1)
(3x) Kahles, Helia Super, 2.5x20 (2x#4, 1x#1)
(1x) Kahles Helia Super 4x32 (#16)
(1x) Kahles, HELIA S, 1.1-4.5x20 (#1A)
(2x) Kahles, HELIA S, 2.2-9x42 (#4)
(1x) IOR 4x32 (#4)
(2x) Adler Luxus 2.5x20 (#1)
(1x) Bausch & Lomb, Balvar, 1.5-6x32 (Duplex)
(2x) Bushnell, Scope Chief IV, 1.5-4.5x20 (Duplex)
(1x) Bushnell Trophy 1-4x24 (Illum. #4)
(1x) Tasco 2-7x32 (Made in Japan) (#1)
(2x) Tasco 6-24x42 (Made In Japan)
(1x) Tasco Target 8-32x40 (Made in Japan)
(1x) Weaver, K-V, 2.5x20 (#2, aka post & crosshair)

Of course, the collection has also changed a bit in the past year as well.  I think I did not too bad, considering I just used the funds from the sale of the scopes I had (see list posted previously) to purchase the ones in the list above that are new.  The best one by far, IMNSHO, is the S&B 1.5-6x42.  OUTSTANDING resolution at last light in the bush!  If only it didn't make the rifle top heavy, but for $300.00 I think it's the best scope I have.

I was really pleasantly surprised with the old Made in Japan, apparently by Hakko, Tasco 2-7x32 with the German #1 post reticle that I got out of Germany.  Maybe they figured if they were going to compete there, they would have to up the ante in quality.  Same with the Tasco Made in Japan target scopes, which are on a .22, a .223 & one of my 6.5x55's.

The other nice surprise was the 2 Adler Luxus 2.5x20 26mm tubed scopes with the #1 post reticles that came on a couple of Husqvarna rifles (a 648 & a 649) I traded into.  I actually wanted them because the purchase price didn't even come close to covering the EAW roll-off mounts the rifles came with, so the scope bonus was very nice.

5 more to sell off & I should have enough that I can pick up 3 KAPS 1-4x22 Classic scopes that I have been looking at direct from the factory as there is no dealer/importer in Canada.

Hope everyone is staying warm.  -32 here for the past month (a lot with -40 & -45) with, apparently no end in sight.  I keep telling myself there's only 2 months left until spring.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2014 at 14:09
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Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: January/26/2014
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So viper or diamondback?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2014 at 14:33
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Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: January/26/2014
Location: Ontario Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 34
I mean, anyone do a comparison to see if diamondback performance was close to viper?
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