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VX OR Z5

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 14:44
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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If max range is 500, and you have binos and spotter, I'm not sure an 18X is needed.

You may like higher magnification scopes, some do; however, I have first-hand experience with too much magnification and an animals leaving the optic's field of view just when I needed him not to.

I hunt hogs allot and frequently take long shots, and seldom do so at greater than 10X.



Do you stalk or hunt from a blind or fixed position?
Are you shooting from mostly supported positions or off-hand or similar?


There are many options, some better than others.

And a note for/on Raider: there exist within every population a certain number of outliers, those for whom the common experience is no experience at all.  Surely, somewhere in the world, there is a guy that saw a Porsche 911 Turbo that was slow as hell, and invariably someone saw a Ferrari beaten summarily by a Chevy Volt.  For the rest of us, Porsche makes a fast car, Chevy volts suck on many levels, Leupold break with startling regularity, Swaros are quite rugged and well made, and good glass is a good thing, and far more important than many other attributes.

If I had a dollar for every spike or button buck shot because an optic was not up to par, I'd have more than a few dollars.

To each his own, and question everything, even this.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:00
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I have not read through the whole thread since it looked like the beginning of a flame war, so I will comment on the original post.

VX-6 is the best hunting scope Leupold has made to date, but optically Z5 is still better, though not by all that much.  

Whichever one you go for, make sure you get it either with a thick and visible reticle that does not disappear on you in low light or with properly worked out reticle illumination (or both).

If you decide to go non-illuminated, you should also consider Leica ER 3.5-14x42.  I spent a fair amount of time with a couple of Leica scopes this past year and I could not be more impressed.  The version I have been playing with is the one with the IBS reticle and while holdover reticles are not always my thing, this one is rather intelligently designed.

They are as good as any other high end scope out there and better in some respects.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:01
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I was replying to rancid coolaid.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:04
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I do like the lecia. Both my range finder and Binos are lecia. I have never seen one of there scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:07
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The entire reason I put the VX6 there was because of the Illuminated Ret. With a custom CDS.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:09
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Here's my hunting buddy's wall.  All but the one on the left (his boy's first buck) are his.   The top one was a guided hunt in Sonora, MX, the other 3 DIY private land Texas bucks.  There is 782" of bone on those four bucks , all taken since 2006 with his 7STW, 140 corelokts, and a 10 year old 3-9x40 VXII.  He obviously knows how to use what equipment he has.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:16
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those are mule deer..... they don't count!  Don't even need a scope for them do ya?  Pretty sure all the ones that I've seen killed were with open sights.  For crying out loud, they practically let you walk right up to them.  My best friend got one with a spear 2 years ago!




ok.. just kidding.  Nice bucks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:20
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"Optics Professional" where, exactly?

Your point is...um...I have no idea what your point is.

Floridamark, I too have spent time on the Leicas, they are great scopes and would be good options.  A few of their reticles are very, very thin, keep that in mind.  But their glass is great and the eye relief puts you far enough away from the ocular that shooting a heavy recoil gun shouldn't get you kissed by the scope.

I would also add the Swaro Z3 scopes, the 3-10 or 4-15 would be a good fit (neither is illuminated, but the glass is quite bright, shouldn't be a problem unless shooting way past legal hours or shooting pests under moon and starts.)

Also look at the Trijicon 2.5-10 and Premier Hunter.

And finally, Kahles is making great stuff, and in your pricerange.  Consider this one:

None of my recommendations is 18X, I much prefer the 12X and 15X top ends, and usually spend much more time in the 3-10X range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:26
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

And a note for/on Raider: there exist within every population a certain number of outliers, those for whom the common experience is no experience at all.  Surely, somewhere in the world, there is a guy that saw a Porsche 911 Turbo that was slow as hell, and invariably someone saw a Ferrari beaten summarily by a Chevy Volt.  For the rest of us, Porsche makes a fast car, Chevy volts suck on many levels, Leupold break with startling regularity, Swaros are quite rugged and well made, and good glass is a good thing, and far more important than many other attributes.

If I had a dollar for every spike or button buck shot because an optic was not up to par, I'd have more than a few dollars.

To each his own, and question everything, even this.

Great glass doesn't make up for being a schittty hunter.  Do these guys you know have binos?   You're arguing with me over stuff I've never said, and even agree with you on some of the arguments you're making against me.  Like I said, I've seen most every high end hunting scope made.  I know great glass when I see it and I've seen plenty of it and I love it.  They all break, even the euros.  That's why they have CS and repair departments.  Do you have stats or something that shows how often scopes of particular makers break?  I'd love to see it.  Like I said, if this VX6 "breaks with startling regularity", it's going down the road quickly.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:28
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I see a pattern here...  when all else fails, post pictures and deflect.  Big Smile



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:29
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Laugh Above
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:30
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

"Optics Professional" where, exactly?

Your point is...um...I have no idea what your point is.


A 195" avg with a lowly VXII should have provided all the clue you needed to "get it".  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:32
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Deflect what?  The fact that one doesn't need $2000 glass to kill giant bucks?  I guess you guys have missed that point that I agree with you for the most part.  People get carried away with what is necessary.  If a guy just wants "x"  brand scope then get after it.....I'm all in.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:33
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If the 3-18X50 Leupold VX-6 is anything like the 2-12X42 optically you will not be disappointed. The only thing the Swaro has over it is weight and marginally better glass.  But with illumination,CDS, and price the VX-6 is hard to beat.  Go put your hands on them and do the touch and feel test. No matter which one of the two you get you probably can't go wrong.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:33
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+1 on the Premier hunter.I have an Illum one ,great scope but they seemed to have disappeared There's talk that the Premier hunter might not make the Canadian line up,so get one while you can!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:47
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EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.


Edited by Bitterroot Bulls - January/28/2013 at 15:52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:50
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782/4= 195.5.  As I said in the post, the one on the left is his son's first buck, the other 4 are his.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 15:59
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Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.

First we have guys recommending glass they've never laid eyes on, then we have a mule deer expert scoring bucks from an internet picture.  Go figure.  BB, our buddy is a certified B&C scorer and he'd beg to differ my friend.  Believe what you want though if it makes you feel better.  I could post another dozen pics of big bucks that were scored and I'd guess you'd be off the mark on them too.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:06
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot Bulls Bitterroot Bulls wrote:

EDIT:
 
never mind, I see the "4."
 
Little optomistic on scores though.

First we have guys recommending glass they've never laid eyes on, then we have a mule deer expert scoring bucks from an internet picture.  Go figure.  BB, our buddy is a certified B&C scorer and he'd beg to differ my friend.  Believe what you want though if it makes you feel better.  I could post another dozen pics of big bucks that were scored and I'd guess you'd be off the mark on them too.  
 
Got under yer skin, eh JG?
 
Thanks for expert status, I do love hunting those things.
 
They are great looking deer, whatever the score!
 
My apologies to the OP for the threadjack.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:09
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Internet comments most definitely do not get under my skin.  I just hate stupid statements that are nothing more than stupid statements.  My apologies to the OP for getting this subject off track.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:16
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I've been as critical of Leupold as anyone in the past. I think they've rested on their laurels too much, became too complacent and possibly arrogant and let their competition catch up and surpass them. They've had a real problem with canted reticles. I've seen more canted Leupy reticles than all other brands combined, though that's admittedly an anecdotal observation with no data to back it up. Their side focus mechanics have suffered from backlash in the past. I've owned many of their scopes at all price levels except their "top of the line" stuff at one time or another, and still own several. 

I have to say, I've been very impressed with their newest VX-3 and VX-6 series scopes! Although I wish they would evolve toward fixed eye relief or at least narrow ER variation across the board, but in all other respects, I believe they've made tremendous improvements in recent years and don't get the credit they deserve for doing so. I'm referring to their hunting scopes here, not their "tactical" stuff.

I'm an unabashed Swaro slut as well, own several of their scopes, and have been thrilled with everything Swaro I've ever owned / used. I haven't compared a Z5 scope head-to-head with a VX-6, so I can't comment on the IQ advantages of one over the other, if any exist.

For argument's sake, let's assume the claims made here are correct and the Z5 is better. By "better," I'm referring to image quality, since it would be difficult if not impossible for any of us to use and abuse a large enough representative sampling necessary to determine which is more prone to failure mechanically. I trust Koshkin's assessment of IQ between these two scopes, but I also know that when two optics of similar IQ are compared, different eyes will see things differently, and reasonable arguments can be made for either optic, depending on which set of optical characteristics the viewer prefers.

BUT... let's be realistic here. If the Z5 is indeed "better," then this fact is reflected in its higher price tag. If we accept the premise that Z5 is better than VX-6, and I have no reason to doubt that... well, VX-6 is also considerably less expensive. At the same time, it offers 6:1 zoom ratio vs. Z5's 5:1, so given the very real optical improvements Leupold has made with the VX-6, I personally think its a decent value at its price point. After all, we're comparing 2 scopes with up to $400 price difference here. A hunter equipped with either scope will be very well equipped with an excellent optic more than suitable for any big game hunting, anywhere in the world, in any legal light condition.

What I don't get is when Leupold finally improves their product to achieve equivalent performance levels as their competition at the same price point, they're still frequently criticized for being "overpriced for what you get" and the competing scopes at similar price/performance almost never are. I don't see how anyone who has really seen and used a new VX-3 doesn't come to the conclusion that they are fully comparable to Zeiss Conquest MC (the 3X zoom variation). The VX-6 is a step above, offers optical performance in the same league as Swaro, is priced less than Z5, but offers 6:1 zoom. Seems reasonably priced for the performance vs. tradeoffs to me. Unlike Leupold's previous forays into so-called "alpha class" scopes, I think the VX-6 is actually worth its asking price.

RC, which VX-6 scopes have you used, and what did you compare them to?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:27
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BTW, though it wasn't one of the two choices, the Leica ER was mentioned a few posts ago. I have a 2.5-10X42 with German #1 reticle, and I'm here to tell you without reservation, it's as good as scopes get. I've compared it directly to Swaro Z6 and Zeiss Victory, and one would be picking some very tiny nits to say conclusively one is "better" than the other. I like things about the Leica ER better than the other alpha scopes, however. The short eyepiece housing design Leica uses provides a bit longer main tube without increasing OAL, which is handy for greater mounting flexibility... especially with a scope with such generous eye relief. I'm also a fan of the "Leica view," characterized by their enhanced contrast. Yes, their plex reticle is very thin... but the German #1 reticle I have is as bold as reticles get.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 16:32
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Originally posted by BobbyH BobbyH wrote:

If the 3-18X50 Leupold VX-6 is anything like the 2-12X42 optically you will not be disappointed. The only thing the Swaro has over it is weight and marginally better glass.  But with illumination,CDS, and price the VX-6 is hard to beat.  Go put your hands on them and do the touch and feel test. No matter which one of the two you get you probably can't go wrong.



I have for one have been more than impressed by CDS it works well in all weather conditions/temps/elevations.
A vx3 in your preferred mag. range w/CDS is far more attractive product than vx6 IMO... not to mention the proven track record of the vx3.

JG
By the way bitterroot bulls is very good at judging mule deer near and far... I found out the hard way. ;)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:05
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Very well said Rifle.  I can't disagree with any of that.   What I'm most baffled by when it comes to Leupold right now, is the lack of a "rainguard" type coating.  They're really missing the boat by at least not adding it to the VX3/VX6.  

rustic, he may be good at it if he sees one in person, but he's not worth a crap at judging them via internet pics. Big Smile  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2013 at 17:30
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Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

Great glass doesn't make up for being a schittty hunter.  Do these guys you know have binos?   

It adds capability which can be useful in some situations.  You will not see fine details as well with any typical carry weight 8X-10X binos as you will with a quality 18X scope, they simply aren't as good a tool for the job.  For finding the deer, yes, very much so.  For verifying point count meets legal/game management/personal requirements at long range, not so much.  Of course if hunting with a low power scope they're the best you've got unless you bust out the spotter.

If one decides he has no need or want for such capability that's fine, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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