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will rain and high humidity.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 16:06
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I didn't redefine anything... I merely resorted to PHYSICS.  A discipline some of you ignore.  Physics is correct at all times... bullets begin to FALL as soon as they leave the barrel, no matter where the the hole in the barrel is pointes... UP, down, sideways.  As soon as the bullet leaves the barrel it begins to FALL.

I've redefined nothing, you however continue to try...



That is simply not correct unless you re-define the frame of reference from earth to the bore axis of the barrel (or unless you are shooting downhill).

The definition of the verb fall is very simple:
"Move downward, typically rapidly and freely without control, from a higher to a lower level"

This is very basic kinematics.

For a typical rifle shot, the barrel is pointed slightly upward.  Initial velocity of the bullet can be split into two projections: vertical and horizontal.  The vertical projection vector is initially pointing upward as the bullet rises somewhat with respect to the earth.  Since it is continuously decelerating, at some point (the apex of the trajectory), vertical velocity becomes zero and after that the bullet actually begins to fall.

All you need to do to verify the terminology is get a dictionary and an introductory physics textbook.  Basic kinematics is covered in the first few chapters.  

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:18
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:


vs 




look at the line furthest to the right.

which one is correct....

Dan and I believe the bottom.... So we are wrong because we believe regardless of angle the bullet gravity comes into effect immediately.

Dan wouldn't know anything about this....CIWS  or Phalanx 


we do understand bullets being angled up but we also know they are immediately affected by gravity so as to drop immediately off their line or angle as figure two shows...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 19:34
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

[QUOTE=338LAPUASLAP]

vs 







You are wrong because you are misinterpreting your own drawing and not reading carefully what I wrote.

If you look at your own drawing, you will note that you have faithfully drawn the trajectory of the bullet to include the apex point (the highest point in the trajectory).

Until the bullet reaches that point, it is not falling toward the earth.  It is accelerating toward the earth, but not yet falling.  Falling means "getting closer to the earth".  Nothing else.

Because the bullet has some initial upward velocity due to the way the barrel is angled in your sketch, it first rises a little with respect to the earth, toward the highest point in your trajectory.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:05
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You simply misunderstand trajectory, ILya.  If it were not "getting closer to the earth", the bullet would be traveling in a straight line until the point where gravity and drag completely overcome the upward vertical component of velocity...   It is traveling a curved path back toward the earth, from the instant it leaves the barrel.  Once the bullet leaves the barrel it departs the bore line and begins its "fall" toward the earth.  How does this sound... "it has a downward acceleration, but it's not moving that way"???  You are correct  in the sense that we are departing on definitions of terms, but your concept is in error.  Yes, the bullet continues to rise on the vertical component of velocity, until that vertical component is completly overcome by gravity (and drag), but the decay from the vertical component continues to be down.  The bullet is therefore rising and falling at the same time... unless it is fired directly horizontally, in which case there is no upward vertical component, or if it is fired "down"... once again no upward vertical component.  There is a horizontal component of velocity that is relatively constant, only impacted by drag.  If, as in most projectile problems, drag is ignored, the horizontal component is "constant".  
Gravity, as you have admitted is an acceleration.  Acceleration is a vector quantity with magnitude and direction... the acceleration of gravity, on earth, is 9.8m/s2  toward the center of the gravitational body... in this case the earth.  Magnitude in a direction in space is MOVEMENT in that direction.  Gravity is always DOWN.  
Now if you provide some acceleration to your bullet once it leave the barrel, my and 338's arguments fail, but a projectile is, by definition a "falling body" whose only acceleration is the acceleration of gravity.  

I admit that initially, the "fall" is very small... unnoticeable in a visual sense, only the finest of instruments can detect it.  That does not change the fact that the bullet is falling from the instant it leaves the barrel and that fall increases as gravity and drag affect it over time.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:20
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Dan, I am pretty solid on how trajectory works.  It is very basic physics.

You are pulling a JG on me and redefining what "falling" means.

The verb "fall" does not mean "accelerate toward earth" it means "move toward earth".

Movement is, by definition, in the same direction as velocity, not necessarily in the same direction as acceleration.   Under the influence of gravity, the vertical velocity vector changes its direction at the highest point of the trajectory.

The bullet in the sketch above does not start moving toward earth until it passes through the apex point.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:47
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I never said FALL... Unless I was quoting RC.

I am not wrong about my horrible drawing very clearly I see a bullet that is dropping upon exit never able to gain or rise above the angle of that which is was fired immediately slowing and being pulled and acted upon by gravity not miraculously gaining and being unaffected during its ascent to the highest point or apex point and then "falling"...

This is not hard really.

It cannot have overcome "basic physics".

Maybe again I am unaware of this newly found scientific discovery of a bullet being able to climb the angle from which is was fired from and gain upward or inverted arc exchange or reverse the pull and angular drop shift of which normal gravitational pull causes as well as the forces acted upon by environmental variables.

Let us extend a line in red out of the barrel but continuing that angle to more clearly understand my view... showing the bullet is always less than the angle it was fired due to physics...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 20:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2013 at 21:00
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blue path is now barrel not perpendicular as previously stated...


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2013 at 10:52
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I never said FALL... Unless I was quoting RC.

I am not wrong about my horrible drawing very clearly I see a bullet that is dropping upon exit never able to gain or rise above the angle of that which is was fired immediately slowing and being pulled and acted upon by gravity not miraculously gaining and being unaffected during its ascent to the highest point or apex point and then "falling"...

This is not hard really.

It cannot have overcome "basic physics".

Maybe again I am unaware of this newly found scientific discovery of a bullet being able to climb the angle from which is was fired from and gain upward or inverted arc exchange or reverse the pull and angular drop shift of which normal gravitational pull causes as well as the forces acted upon by environmental variables.

Let us extend a line in red out of the barrel but continuing that angle to more clearly understand my view... showing the bullet is always less than the angle it was fired due to physics...

Dan said fall.

You drawing with the red lien is absolutely correct and the bullet does immediately drop below the barrel axis upon leaving the muzzle.  However, for the angle you have drawn, it does not immediately start dropping or falling with respect to the earth, until it reached the highest point in the trajectory.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2013 at 16:41
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It is my humble opinion that every single person participating in this thread knows exactly what effect gravity has on a bullet the instant it leaves the confines of a barrel, regardless of the orientation of the bore C/L. Furthermore, each of you deep down also knows the other gents know what happens to said bullet, since we've had this discussion before.

I believe this has become a debate over semantics.

I believe the OP's questions have been answered.
Humidity definitely affects bullet trajectory as noted.
Rain... not sure whether or not anything's been proven conclusively, however it seems logical to me there should be an effect if one is shooting in a monsoon-level downpour. I highly doubt there is any noticeable change in bullet drop in light rain, except to the extent rain increases humidity and therefore makes air less dense.
Overall, I tend to believe rain has more affect on the shooter than the projectile.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2013 at 19:25
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Even in a light rain the bullet is driven down by each impact as rain usually drops from the rain clouds...

So every time the bullet is struck, even though has not been opposed by an equal or greater force as been impacted thus having a minute change to the bullets trajectory while you can argue it is less dense air  therefore not as much drop the light rain in this case does have more of an affect on the bullets drop than the lessening of the drop due to the humidity in the air.  

I believe this again makes sense from a layman's perspective.  There is no force field or shield...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2013 at 21:13
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Understand the rationale. This assumes that the impact actually occurs, though. Is it possible the bow shockwave could disrupt potential impact?


I believe rain's effect on a bullet's flight would likely be minimal, and whatever magnitude exists would certainly be unpredictable.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2013 at 08:50
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Humidity would definitely effect my shooting for the worse. It was bad enough running around in it while in Missouri earlier this month. Big Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2013 at 09:31
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wouldn't the heat evaporate the rain around the bullet in flight? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2013 at 09:40
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While they have a model for this it still causes impact and or vibrations which slows changing the directional momentum. think of the splash of water down than up for a single drop...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2013 at 12:29
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Would be the basis for an interesting test. Has there ever been a test done to conclusively quantify the effects of rain on bullet trajectory? I don't know.

Since an object moving close to or over supersonic speed compresses the air in front of it, my thinking is that the compression should disrupt the movement of a water droplet (which has a mass of only about .05 gram) and cause it to flow around the compression wave like an airfoil, preventing it from colliding with the bullet. In fact, the supersonic compression causes water in the air on a clear day to condense anyway. This is the familiar vapor cloud you see forming around a jet as it approaches Mach 1.

I've shot several game animals and zeroed rifles in the rain and have never seen any POI difference, but all < 300 yds. I've never done any long range shooting while it was raining that I can recall.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2013 at 18:07
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FWIW, I have a book entitled "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" and looked in the index for affects of rain. In it, author Robert A. Rinker had this to say about shooting in the rain (page 376):

"While rain can make a hunt or a day on the range miserable, it has little or no effect on the projectiles. The statistical probability of a tiny bullet that is in the air for such an incredibly short period of time striking a raindrop is thought by many experts to be small. If it contacted a drop or two or even a thousand, the trajectory or gyroscopic stability is not affected. At least not that testing by the U.S. military has discovered. Of course in testing, it is not possible to determine which bullets hit a raindrop and which did not (unless shots are fired through a stream of water, but this will greatly exceed the proposed problem). The chronograph and targets showed no difference."


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2013 at 16:13
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Been away for a while... doing trajectory anaylysis for some upcoming efforts.  I put this together a while back, but just got time to post.  There is more available...


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2013 at 17:36
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Watch the video… a physics lesson for those who do not understand.  Specifically about 19.5 minutes in…


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/09/2013 at 21:16
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Yep - you would have enjoyed my old CSM she thougth a rifle bullet went in a straight line forever which is why rifles are so dangerous.     Whistling  Sometimes its just better for me to keep my mouth shut.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2013 at 05:58
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Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

When I shoot upwards the buck falls, when I shoot perpendicular the buck falls, when I shoot downwards the buck falls.
 
What more do I need to know?


8shots you stole my thunder, that's almost exactly what I was going to say. I have a headache after all that stuff, but you know what , I love it. I've learned more on this forum than you can imagine. Now next month when Whitetail season opens I hope when I have " Bucky " in my scope I don't start thinking about all of this " S--T "

Thanks guys that was great.

Excellent


Well guys if I hadn't seen the recent post on this subject the subject had been completely erased from my mind. I saw " Bucky " on Friday and as you can imagine I shot and he fell or did he fall. Well as the bullet was falling " Bucky " also fell. Seriously I love this forum and continue to learn from it almost each and every day. Keep up the great work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2016 at 21:12
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Just for grins!

Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 00:52
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Physics remains the same..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2016 at 01:20
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Miss these type of posts.

Lots of great info for passers by.
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