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WSM, what do you think cont.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:58
pyro6999 View Drop Down
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i know when i bought it my dad complained that is crappy old 670 win(cheap version of the m70 no floor plate cheap stock etc.) was a kicker and it was, so he wasnt to excited when i came home with the 300winm but after he shot it a couple of times he loved it, so when i got married i let him keep it and the avatar on my status bar was shot with that rifle last october. he got to shoot my wsm in 2001 and he hated it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:05
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

thats why i said i cant see a couple of inches of barrel making that much difference i'm talking a 300 winm that kicks like a 25-06 and that 300wsm is more like a .338 or more in felt recoil

 

One of the things that you want to remember when dealing with recoil is that actual recoil and felt recoil are not necessarily the same thing.

 

The actual recoil of the rifle is easy to calculate as has already been discussed. Its calculation is a simple representation of physics and it doesn't change and is not a matter open for debate. Any variation in actual recoil would mean that something is different about the two rifles being compared.  Most likely this will be their weight. (Remember to include the scope, sling, bipod, and any other add-ons into your calculation of the rifle's weight.)

 

Felt recoil however, can be a completely different animal for a number of reasons.  Shoot one of those old "western" single shots in 45-70 with no recoil pad at all on the stock and then compare it to a like-chambered modern Ruger #1 and you'll get the picture real fast. Lots of things affect the way we perceive recoil and can make it feel "better" or "worse" even though the actual physical amount of recoil energy remains the same.

 

Among such things would be:

  • The recoil pad (its presence, quality, design, and construction)
  • The "fit" of the firearm in question to the shooter. 
  • The shooter's experience with managing recoil.
  • Proper scope mounting (Having a scope ram the eye tends to increase one's perception of recoil.)
  • The design of the rifle (single shot, bolt, auto, etc.)

 



Edited by lucznik
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:06
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As Rifledude pointed out we can't refute Mr Newton's laws but felt recoil can vary widely between identical loads, rifle weights etc due to stock design, and type of butt pad if any.  Always preferred straight stocked rifles myself but have not had occasion to try out too many identical loads in differing stock designs.  Have not shot the short mags yet. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:07
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these rifle are the same other than one is stainless and one is not they are both aboltII the winm just has a little bit longer barrel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:08
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With regards to accuracy, we as shooters have to be careful about making concrete conclusions about something based on a sample size of one.  Just because a given rifle in a given caliber is accurate doesn't mean that all rifles of that model in that caliber will be accurate as well.  Plus, a rifle chambered in a WSM that is superbly accurate may have been just as accurate if it had been chambered in a different cartridge, as observed accuracy may be just the result of a really good barrel, a good square action with even locking lug contact, sitting in a stable bedding foundation, combined with a tweaked load that's tuned to the rifle's harmonic "sweet spot."

 

But, starting out with an inherently accurate chambering surely doesn't hurt...

 

The WSMs offer the potential of greater accuracy based on 2 factors, both of which may not be very significant, depending on the overall quality of the rifle and especially the barrel:

1.  In the same school of thought as the PPC and BR cases, a short, fat case exposes a greater volume of the powder charge to ignition and combustion, resulting in less variation from shot to shot in pressures and velocities.  More efficient burn is why the same velocities are achievable with slightly less powder volume in the short mag cases as their full length brethren.

2.  All else being equal, a short action is a little stiffer than a long action of the same general design.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:16
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                      I am confident with the accuracy part but the reduced felt recoil

that is the part I am disecting at this time and trying to recall all the memories

and details of my field tests.



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:20
lucznik View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

The WSMs offer the potential of greater accuracy based on 2 factors, both of which may not be very significant, depending on the overall quality of the rifle and especially the barrel:

1.  In the same school of thought as the PPC and BR cases, a short, fat case exposes a greater volume of the powder charge to ignition and combustion, resulting in less variation from shot to shot in pressures and velocities.  More efficient burn is why the same velocities are achievable with slightly less powder volume in the short mag cases as their full length brethren.

2.  All else being equal, a short action is a little stiffer than a long action of the same general design.

 

 

You forgot one.

 

3. Advertisers say it's so and they don't lie.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 16:36
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Oh yeah, I forgot that one.

 

We've had so many different rifle cartridges available for so long, covering every conceivable shooting task one could ever dream up that there really isn't a "need" for a new cartridge design with existing metallic cartridge/primer ignition technology.  Truthfully, an animal shot with the same bullet in a 7WSM vs. a 7Rem mag vs. a 7WBY mag vs. a .280 vs. a 7Rem SAUM, vs. a 7STW vs.... and so on... won't know the difference, will be just as dead with all, and at any sane distance, you won't have a significant advantage with one over the other in real-world conditions.  However, even if the "advantages" of a new cartridge is very slight, I still like tinkering with new stuff and just having something "different," if for no other reason than it gives me an excuse, however flimsy, to buy a new rifle.  I don't like having too many different rifles in the same caliber.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2007 at 19:34
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To you guys seem to be missing the point with the short mags.  The stuff about the potential to increase accuracy is insignificant to me.  Same thing with the potential to possibly reduce recoil.  To me, these arguements sound like the manufacturers marketing hype to justify a reason to sell more guns.  I own 2 300 win mags, 2 300 WSMs, and 1 7mm rem mag.  Accuracy is more based on the rifle than the caliber.

This is the order of accuracy from best to worst.

300 win mag sendero

300 short mag super grade

300 win mag berreta

7mm rem mag super grade

300 short mag kimber

The best averages .5-.75 MOA and the worst averages 1.25-1.5 MOA.  For a hunting rifle they are all plenty accurate and none of them kick noticably worse than the other.  If there is a difference in felt recoil or accuracy it's not enough to matter.

 

The ONLY thing that the short mags offer is to be able to have magnum performance, in a smaller, lighter, and more portable rifle.  To me it's not about the caliber, its about the rifle that it's based on. 

A typical factory magnum usually has a larger, heavier stock, with a 26" smoke pole barrel that is not very agile or portable.  A typical short mag is trimmed down with a thinner stock, lighter shorter action and shorter barrel.  Manufacturers could trim down a long mag and mag them carry like a rifle should carry but most don't.  If they did, then I would probably prefer a long magnum (because a long mag offers more versatility and the ability to use heavier bullets).  But most manufacturers  make the magnum guns carry more like a railroad tie with a barrel attached to it.  Just look at the Kimber long mag vs. a Kimber short mag.  Similar mag performance but different size rifle.  I have attached a picture of a long mag super grade and my short mag super grade side by side.  The short mag carries like a rifle should.  The long mag is fine as a beenfield rifle but doesn't carry nearly as well.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2007 at 21:12
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Sorry about the tone, I didn't mean it to sound like a rant.  I have read the theories about the "potential" accuracy improvement and "potential" reduced recoil.  These very well may be valid theories.  My point was that it doesn't seem like a significant enough difference to choose a WSM over.  Maybe the WSMs are more accurate, I really don't know.  On a benchrest gun, that might matter to me.  On a hunting rifle, fit and my ability to shoot it are more important.  Also, I have to consider that I am not very sensitive to recoil.  At least not up to the 300 mag level.  I could make the arguement that the WSM does kick less because all my WSMs weigh less than my long mags but kick the same.  Truth is, I haven't really noticed either way.  Over all though, I mostly prefer the rifles that WSMs are built on.  However there are some long mags that are built trim and fit me perfectly.

 

The only real disadvantage to the WSMs that really matter to me is the ability to shoot a heavier bullet.  A 300 win mag can go up to a 200 or even 220 grain which may be useful in Alaska.  A 300 WSM is limited to 180 because of case capacity.  I guess that is why I have them both.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/01/2007 at 22:05
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as for recoil, I have two winchester m 70's in a .243 wood stock and a 7mm wsm synthetic, last fall i had both at the range and shot them back to back. i came to the conclusion that if i were blindfolded and were to shoot either one it would be hard to tell what one you just fired from felt recoil. don't know if that proves anything just my 2 cents.

Norm

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2007 at 15:08
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Originally posted by tbone1 tbone1 wrote:

Sorry about the tone, I didn't mean it to sound like a rant.  I have read the theories about the "potential" accuracy improvement and "potential" reduced recoil.  These very well may be valid theories.  My point was that it doesn't seem like a significant enough difference to choose a WSM over.  Maybe the WSMs are more accurate, I really don't know.  On a benchrest gun, that might matter to me.  On a hunting rifle, fit and my ability to shoot it are more important...

 

You are correct.  The biggest contributor to rifle accuracy is in the quality of the barrel.  The slight accuracy advantage of a short powder column comes into play when the rest of the rifle is capable of realizing that difference.  The short, fat case concept has been proven in benchrest rifles -- PPC cases -- to gain marginal improvements in accuracy, keeping in mind that in that application, a few .001" reduction in group size is significant.  In a hunting rifle, the advantage to the WSMs is exactly as you stated -- shorter, lighter, trimmer rifles with magnum level performance.  Even then, this advantage might not be very significant.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 18:29
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winchester and browning mag. rifles will all unscrew you at the hip.
i have owned a win mod 70 in 300 mag. it kicked like a mule stright back
and very little rise in the muzzle.i had a 7mm mag, in browning a-bolt and it would kick harder than my rem. in 7mm mag. the rem.would get more rise off
the bag than the browning. i have fired a custom built 300wsm on a rem. short action,witch i'm sure ya'll have too,and the rifle goes at about 13 lb rigged out
and fellows, i can not see where it kicks harder than the browning 7mm mag.
or the win mod. 70 in 300 mag. to me i can put more rounds down range w/the
300wsm built on a rem. action than the winchester or the browning

oh!! both winchester and browning rifle weighted in at around 9 to 10 lb
w/scope. i'm sure weight has a lot to do with also.the rem. just seems like
it rises more off the bag,and the felt recoil is not as bad as a rifle that
comes stright back like the winchester and browning, savage.


just my tought
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 23:20
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The recent Wolfe publication test of a 300 H&H vs 300 WSM ought to be a good start at putting to bed all this hoopla about short cases having any advantage in a hunting rifle. While I may agree you can save a pound with a SA vs a Mag, you can also save that by changing your boots or carrying a water filter vs a canteen.
It's fun and we all like to play with different guns BUT don't be suckered in by the marketing hype in to thinking that you will suddenly be able to kill twice as far twice as fast. That has not happened since the 30-06 replaced the 45-70 and is unlikly to ever happen again until we get Phazers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 07:15
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i guess i dont see them saying anything about the wsm being able to kill an animal any quicker than any other caliber, i think their main selling point is there is no more belt and a shorter action, i have compared all kinds of magnums with there weatherby and h&h counterparts and its really not enough difference to get me excited, but the new chamberings can make a guy want to go out and buy one and thats ok. i really like my 300wsm but love my 300winm its got a little longer barrel on it than my wsm has and it kicks more like a .270 than a 300, my wsm is some what obnoxious to fire from a bench i will admit.
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As long as new stuff gets gun nuts like us foaming at the mouth to buy new toys, the shooting industry is able to continue being profitable and improve their products, and it's all good.  Although it's true we don't "need" any new cartridges, rifles, scopes, bullets, powders, etc., the fact is if there weren't any new product introductions enticing gun fanatics to go out and buy the latest and greatest, the shooting industry would be stagnant, wither and die.  Again, Man Law (section III, E, 2) states that "a man is totally justified in buying anything solely because it's cool."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 10:31
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RD, you got it right. My favorite quote:"I never saw an armored car following a hearse." Second favorite:"The objective of life is to be sure the check for your funeral bounces."
I will be among the first in line for a new TC ICON in 30 TC for no other reason
than I WANT IT!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 13:11
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+1.  I sure like the looks of the Icon.  It has some very innovative features!  I especially like the integral scope bases, aluminum bedding block, 5R button rifled barrel, recessed bolt shroud, and overall style and countours of the receiver!  Out of the current chamberings offered, I'd probably go with the 30TC as well -- a hotter version of the .308.  In addition, it has some pretty sexy lines, and from the pics I've seen so far, it looks like they may be shipped with some decent wood figure.  I'll wait until it's out awhile, but it's definitely on my list of potential new firearms purchases! 
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