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Ziess vs. Leupold

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 12:21
Ed Connelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 12:43
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Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

This is how I see it.-Leupold scopes are alot like Bose stereo products. Bose makes VERY GOOD sounding stereo equipment and speakers, but they certainly are not the BEST. Bose mass produces their product, over inflates the price and spends a ton of money on marketing and advertising telling the world that they are the best sounding product on the market. As a result we the consumer are bedazzled by their flashy ads, radio and television commercials. We are bombarded daily (and have been for the last 20 years) by the Bose marketing strategists. Marketers know that it is human nature to want to identify with something-be it a sports team, a particular car company, etc.... so it is only natural that we are drawn to the company that has the MOST ads, the BIGGEST ads, and the ads that tell you that "we are the BEST" Ask anyone that knows just alittle bit about stereos what the best brand out there is and they will probably say "Bose"   ...Enter Leupold... they do exactly the samr thing. You cant pick up a hunting or shooting magazine anywhere without seeing a full page, full color, usually on the inside front or back cover, ad by Leupold. So is Leupold a good scope - YES, is Leupold the BEST scope? - NO!  He who advertises the most, wins.


Very good analogy, Bose and Leupold, Brian!!! Excellent products but with a little research or a web site like this, one may find better choices and bigger return for their money.
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Oh brudder!!!  Another thread locked around the axle.....  Eek 
 
Build quality.....I think Leupold is one of--if not The Best--Most beautiful scopes ever created.  However, I think the folks at Leupold are an insidious bunch of marketeers who, while building a decent product (---the poor little old scope tube never did nothin' to nobody!!!---), HYPE their stuff up to the Sky---and claim that it can do everything but walk on water and gadzillions of people actually believe it......whereas back in the real old days Leupold was simply ANOTHER scope company that made good scopes and was competing with OTHER good scope companies---like Redfield, Bausch & Lomb, Lyman, Unertl, etc.----and ALL OF THOSE dudes were actually getting their collective asses KICKED by yet ANOTHER good old scope company ( that just did their work and didn't spend the USA national debt on bullsh*t advertizing...) and that little old company was WEAVER.   Nothin' fancy---just a scope sight that worked....in the rain...in the snow....a lot of game animals dropped through Weaver crosshairs---probably more than ANY SCOPE ON EARTH.  PERIOD.
 
Enter a new era. You might say--Fast forward... Unertl got out of the civilian scope market-- except for target scopes--and concentrated on military contracts, Weaver fell victim to exports and a more affluent customer base--Weaver had always reigned as a reasonable scope---suddenly folks were willing to spend more in the " me generation" and Weaver was not " necessary" anymore ( That is my take on the situation...) Lyman faltered and stopped the scope thing after 55 years, Redfield--once the King of Scopes--died in the ninties after playing second fiddle for years....Bausch & Lomb had gone to Japan 40 years ago for economic reasons...... that left Leupold ( and an upstart company called Burris--and Don Burris had defected from Redfield originally....)
 
Suddenly ( over a period of a couple of decades) Leupold began to proclaim themselves a diety....kinda like the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs did.....
 
......But there were still a lot of us Normal folks out here in TV Land that remembered the REAL story......that a scope was something one used to shoot a bullet to a certain spot.  We knew that lots of scopes ( even Tascos!!!Shocked) could do that.
 
We also knew that Leupold stubbornly refused to upgrade their little scope tubes in the eighties and ninties when the other "mere mortal" scope companies like Redfield and Nikon and EVERYBODY ELSE ON EARTH began to multi-coat their optics and give the customer a real good VALUE for their money.  All of the scopes ( except some famously crappy ones) would allow you to shoot your deer every year....but the only way that you could get a multi-coated Leupold was if you bit the bullet and PAID DOUBLE for their Vari-X III line.......THAT pissed me off!!  ( Who the hell do they think THEY are??)
 
Well.........it wasn't only ME that noticed this ..umm....ATTITUDE!!  It was noticed by some other scope companies......from Europe.  (OOPS.)  ZEISS saw what was going on (and knowing that Americans would PAY BIG BUCKS for scopes) decided to come over here and kick some ass. 
 
Enter Zeiss and Swarovski and Kahles.....and Schmidt and Bender.  Suddenly Mr. Leupold was getting an ass-whuppin'.  Affluent people were now spending BIG BUCKS and were REALLY getting their money's worth for a change!! 
 
Now Leupold is playing catch up but trying to save face at the same time......which is no mean feat.  How do you pretend to be a God and not let anyone know that Weaver used to kick your ass thirty years ago??   I know!!   RAISE PRICES and Spin Doctor!!!!  
 
What I like about Leupold is.....their little scope tubes ( that never did nuthin' to nobody..)!! I LIKE the little scopes with the little gold ring and the nifty little shape.  They work good.  They cost too much, but they're pretty.  They're lightweight.  You don't need to be ashamed of them..
 
What I DON'T like about them is what they represent.  There are morons out there who have bought into this Scientology-type Cult of Leupold.  I do not want to be identified with those types of jackasses.....people who are so ignorant that they actually think that Leupold is superior to...let's say....a Bushnell 4200 or a Nikon or an IOR ( which they have never even heard of....)  I don't want the average person, who may see me and my rifle, thinking that I am one of the Brainwashed ones.  And yet, I do like their little scope tubes---for certain applications.....like when it is the only scope that will fit on a rifle.... I just don't want to have to spend $200 more in order to get Bushnell 4200 value!! 
 
I think Leupold is a good scope...'cause it is! Like Dale Clifford said--the Mark 4 is probably the best entry-level "real" tactical scope in the world.  I'll take his word for it.  Leupold is alright......
 
We just need to learn how to deal with the stigma of having a Leupold scope....
 
We'll just have to rely on our little personalities to get us through these embarassing moments.    


Nice article there Ed!! Excellent
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Good read, Ed. I enjoyed that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 13:29
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

  I have peered through more friends Leupold than I cared to mention.  I did fail to mention another reason I personally never owned own until recently, but it was for the reasons Roy mentioned.  I did elude to it in around about matter.
 Next, you seem rather a cocky little fellow as though you are genius and an expert marksman all rapped up into one.  For your sake, I hope that is true.  You would be a much better asset around here giving out helpful information instead of stirring the pot.  You do seem to have the knowledge.
 Oh, and by the way.  Before buying any Leupolds, I own a Trijicon, Elite 4200, Nikon Monarch, Sightron SII, Fujinon, Swift Premier, Burris FFII, Mueller to include the TAC II, Japanese made Tasco World Class, Japanese made Weatherby, Japanese made Nikko Stirling, Bushnell Legend, pre-Blount Simmons Aetecs and non-Aetecs and several other makes I cannot even remember.  Do they qualify to compare to a Leupold.
 
That is really all I wanted to know, Dolphin. With this laundry list, I would think you could qualify a scope as being overpriced as you stated about Leupold in the past.
 
Roy
 I agree, Leupold are way over priced for what you get.  I still believe that, no doubt about it.  And as I said in a previous post, I will not buy another unless it is a niche scope as all the others were.  I will stick with the Bushnell Elite 4200 or 3200 series, Nikons, Trijicons, Kahles when I can find great deals like I did on the one I bought (around half price, BNIB) and others that offer the same or better performance for less money.  Right now as I said I am researching Hawke rifle scopes and I think I am going to buy their Frontier model in either the 3x9 40 mm or 2.5x10 44 mm, both less than 250, made in Japan with mil dot reticles and a free ballistic program that customizes to your caliber via chronograph data, bullet weight and even ED.  You can print out the data for the reticle in circle shape form for your sight in distance and tape it to the inside of your flip up scope covers.  It is really a great idea that they have had for awhile and wonder if Zeiss copied the idea from them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 13:32
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

This is how I see it.-Leupold scopes are alot like Bose stereo products. Bose makes VERY GOOD sounding stereo equipment and speakers, but they certainly are not the BEST. Bose mass produces their product, over inflates the price and spends a ton of money on marketing and advertising telling the world that they are the best sounding product on the market. As a result we the consumer are bedazzled by their flashy ads, radio and television commercials. We are bombarded daily (and have been for the last 20 years) by the Bose marketing strategists. Marketers know that it is human nature to want to identify with something-be it a sports team, a particular car company, etc.... so it is only natural that we are drawn to the company that has the MOST ads, the BIGGEST ads, and the ads that tell you that "we are the BEST" Ask anyone that knows just alittle bit about stereos what the best brand out there is and they will probably say "Bose"   ...Enter Leupold... they do exactly the samr thing. You cant pick up a hunting or shooting magazine anywhere without seeing a full page, full color, usually on the inside front or back cover, ad by Leupold. So is Leupold a good scope - YES, is Leupold the BEST scope? - NO!  He who advertises the most, wins.


Very good analogy, Bose and Leupold, Brian!!! Excellent products but with a little research or a web site like this, one may find better choices and bigger return for their money.
Great analogy with Bose.  As a high fi fanatic since I was a kid, that was great to hear.  Personally, I am a Vandersteen nut.  How about you bricat and mike650.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 13:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 14:01
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My stuff's old school, outdated, and mix of names from the past, Carver, McIntosh, Nakamichi, Technics, Klipsch and Bose. Wink


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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

I'm a Brazil nut.  Bucky      


You kill me Ed!! Roll%20on%20Floor%20Laughing
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 14:19
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

I'm a Brazil nut.  Bucky      
I knew that.Big%20Grin
My eyes hurt and I just started to check my e-mail.Whacko
Didn't Leupold get beat-up here about 5 months ago?Whacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2008 at 16:28
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

My stuff's old school, outdated, and mix of names from the past, Carver, McIntosh, Nakamichi, Technics, Klipsch and Bose. Wink


That's good stuff.  As long as it sounds good too you, thats all that counts.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2008 at 00:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2008 at 04:27
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Head%20Bang
 
Can we PLEASE try and stay on topic, Gents!!!! This thread is all about donuts!! Yippee
(Thats MUCH more fun than yet another boring 'ol Zeiss/Leupold blab-fest.) Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2008 at 08:23
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At last count I reload for 38 different rifles, most of them for friends.  I shoot all of them at the range to test new loads and start low for working up.  Some of those have or have had Leupolds on them.  Of course it is entirely possible to shoot small groups with Leupolds if the gun and the load are up to it but now I understand what those range provided spotting scopes behind the firing line are for - shooters without scopes or shooters who have Leupold scopes on their rifles.

This is a typical story of a range session where I went with a friend who had a new gun and I loaded up some generic loads (new case - medium powder charge) for a 7 mag, it was a Wtby Vanguard and had a Leupold 3.5x10x50mm VX-III, it could have been a VariX-III, I don't know or care just know it was new.  He would shoot and get up and go back to the spotting scope to see where the bullet hit.  After a while I started telling him where from looking at his target through my Zeiss Conquest 3x9x50.  He finally noticed and asked how I could see the bullet hole.  I just picked my rifle up and went over and set it in his sandbags.  He was amazed and impressed and made the statement that he wished he could afford a Zeiss.  When I told him I had paid a little less than $400.00 for it his jaw literally dropped.  I took his gun back to my bench and adjusted the ocular ring (I know that is only adjusting the reticle clarity) but could not make that Leupold clear up.  The next week I was mounting a new Zeiss Conquest on his rifle.
 
The reason I say it is a typical story because almost all of my friends who make range trips with me wind up replacing their Leupolds after looking through decent glass.  Just recently I procured and mounted 5 new scopes on rifles, none of them my own.  There were 2 Conquests 4.5x14x50 RapidZ 800's, 1 Conquest 4.5x14x44 RapidZ 800, 1 Conquest 3.5x10x50 RapidZ600 and 1 Simmons Aetec 4x14x44 (he's a cheap bastard).
 
I generally try not to be prejudicial and am working on it but when I see someone at the range with a gold ring on their scope I think to myself that shooter just doesn't know any better.  Sorta like in politics when someone says they are a Democrat I think that they are just not well informed and logic and facts will not work with changing their ideas.  Like I say, for those shooters out there who I am offending, I'm working on it.  Most of the time if someone in camp starts bragging about their Leupold scope, I don't say a word, well not much anyway, because it's like discussing religion or politics and they are not going to believe me anyway, so why go through the possible hurt feelings.  Now if they are to the point where they want my opinion I will give it to them, and then prove it.
 
Can you shoot bugholes with a Leupold, yes.  Are Leupolds tough scopes, I suppose although the only 2 scopes I had fail were Leupolds.  But, friends don't let friends shoot Leupolds.
 
Now I know that this is going to piss some of you guys off, but this is JMHO.  After all, somebody asked for it, didn't they?
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Well said!
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I think that it is more often the uninformed Leupold owners who go around putting down other people's optics.  I would never pester anyone just because they chose to have a Leupold on their rifle.  And I'm sure that there are lots of normal Leupold owners, too, who do not go around making a jerk out of themselves. 
 
But I think that more Leupold owners are members of the OPTICS POLICE than any other brand for some reason.  I believe it is because of Leupold's smart ass ad campaigns--- and the fact that so many gun writers have got Leupolds on their rifles.  The proliferation of Leupold optics in print-- and in hunting camps-- seems to entitle jerky people into thinking that they can boast about their optics and sneer at other brands.  In all fairness to Leupold , these people would probably be boasting about their lawn mowers, too, for all I know.  It isn't Leupold's fault.  It ain't the poor little scope's fault, either---THAT is just an inanimate object----It's just the JERKS. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2008 at 09:32
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Is that a George Foreman donut griddle?? 
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I think it's a Leupold donut griddle, see the golden rings.
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like D's Dad said-- your listenin to the equipment not the song. Zeiss's range of product line sucks. their technology in the conquest is (1 in tubes ,plastic turrets ) somewhat old and cheap, and have only recently updated their reticle selection. they have no lower market tier, (not a question if vx, rifleman etc are good or bad, they get compared to a conquest). comparing scopes from a bench is questionable at best. Judging the scope by their (as ed points out) marketing is a fallacy of relevance arguement. Some rifles, bolt throw, won't allow larger euro type ends.

had a conquest come apart on an ar10 decided to give them second try, as everyone thinks there so great. this one seems better made, no wobbely in the side focus. who knows it might make it past the normal leo test.

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Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

I think it's a Leupold donut griddle, see the golden rings.


Good one, bricat!
+1 on what Dale says, too.
Leo has a huge product line with offerings for a wide range of shooters. They won't have everything for everyone but come pretty close. They are the biggest and that is bound to displease people, also.
They are one of the brands that are always in consideration for me. The reason being is I have always had great reliability with them.
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Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

I think it's a Leupold donut griddle, see the golden rings.


Big%20Grin
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

I think it's a Leupold donut griddle, see the golden rings.


Good one, bricat!
+1 on what Dale says, too.
Leo has a huge product line with offerings for a wide range of shooters. They won't have everything for everyone but come pretty close. They are the biggest and that is bound to displease people, also.
They are one of the brands that are always in consideration for me. The reason being is I have always had great reliability with them.


Like Microsoft, big company, big target.

I agree, when choosing a scope I always check my Leupold options too.
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:



Like Microsoft, big company, big target.

I agree, when choosing a scope I always check my Leupold options too.


Very well put.
As far as arrogant Leupy owners go, I've never come across any in camps or at the range. In fact, most of the shooters I come across want to check out the 4200's, Monarch's and Kahles I bring. The Kahles C models never fail to impress, BTW. These same shooters and hunters see plenty of Zeiss but not much of the Kahles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2008 at 11:06
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:



Like Microsoft, big company, big target.

I agree, when choosing a scope I always check my Leupold options too.


Very well put.
As far as arrogant Leupy owners go, I've never come across any in camps or at the range. In fact, most of the shooters I come across want to check out the 4200's, Monarch's and Kahles I bring. The Kahles C models never fail to impress, BTW. These same shooters and hunters see plenty of Zeiss but not much of the Kahles.
 
That's because your armed. I think the ugly side comes out mostly on these type forums, and this forum is mild to say the least. Much higher class of folks here.
 
Roy
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